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Performance improvement plans are on the rise

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Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#81

Post by asdff »

ghettoCoder wrote: post #16

Going through the motions of a PIP is a pain if you're management. If someone gets PIP'ed then a decent manager already exhausted all other avenues to get a team member to start contributing at the expected level and the PIP is just to provide cover. You don't PIP a lower performing staff unless they're completely useless or toxic to the environment, you just find tasks that suit them better. At least in my experienc…

Amazing how we get managers in this thread on both sides of “we’d never PIP to fire” and “yup we always PIP to fire” and both sides confidently say the other side doesn’t exist e.g. “you don't do that/i’ve never heard of that.”

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#83

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

asdff wrote: post #70
itake wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIPs are a double edged blade. If the worker passes the pip, but regresses immediately, then we can't just keep yo-yoing with multiple pips per year. So unfortunately, this means when an EM creates a PIP, to prevent Yo-Yoing, they need you to leave.

How do you know its the workers fault and not the nature of this role in the company?

In reality it doesn't matter. Most of the time I'd wager it is not the worker's fault. But that doesn't materially change the situation.

From the perspective of the company, the company is almost never at fault.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#84

Post by asdff »

lvgifirnejsjs wrote: post #67
amazingamazing wrote: post #9

With at-will employment is a pip necessary? What happens if you fire someone who is performing?

Specifically regarding at-will employment and the United States, you can still be sued for discrimination based on race, gender, and all other protected classes. PIPs and other similar processes are primarily created, from a legal/HR perspective, to protect against those lawsuits. So, somewhat counterintuitively, at-will employment in the United States(especially in states like California) is not actually at-will in…

Funny how they are used as a cover to those lawsuits but at the same time anyone with half a brain can see how a racist could saddle someone with bogus pips. Someone must have brought this shaky pip defence in front of the right corporate favoring judge if everyone is using it as this ironclad defense now.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#85

Post by asdff »

deadbabe wrote: post #11

I don’t understand why you would PIP a person and keep them waffling around for months on end collecting paychecks when you can just severance them out and pay less in time and money?

Management has its own incentives to limit turnover and maintain their department headcounts.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#86

Post by sunshowers »

stavros wrote: post #36
deskr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

A PIP should be the last chance to improve. You should have had many chances before that, with lots of clear feedback. Of course it's soul-destroying, but laying them off is worse.

People have things going on in their lives! What if it's not the employee's performance but the manager's that's concerning — it's the manager who should get the PIP? What if it's the CEO's fault for creating an environment where many employees are demotivated — what if the CEO should be the one getting the PIP?

Tech still, to this day, has a problem retaining women and URMs. Conceptions of individual performance are often shaped by unintentional (or intentional) sexism and racism. Speaking personally, at my last role at FB there was a quite marked change in how I was treated after I transitioned to ~female.

The PIP process does not interrogate all this nearly as much as it should. I'm quite convinced it's absolutely the wrong way to go about things — too much falls on the IC and not enough on management.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#87

Post by jayd16 »

autobodie wrote: post #41
surgical_fire wrote: post #6

Nothing really bad about a PIP. You get to coast for months while you do interviews prior to being fired. Never been PIP'd myself, but I would prefer it than being fired without warning.

I would drastically prefer a lack of warning over a lack of reason, and I cannot help but interpret any other position as disingenuous.

>a lack of warning over a lack of reason

The choice is one or both...

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#88

Post by makk »

I'm pretty happy with how PIPs work.

The first and last time I was put on a PIP I went into early retirement the next day. In doing so, I caught the VP Eng who did the PIP completely flat footed. It turns out they did the PIP against the advice of their boss, the CTO. Egg all over the VP's face. The VP got canned 6 months after that and had to scramble to find another job while I was at the beach.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#89

Post by throwawygg »

Throwaway manager here. I tried to keep a personality hire out of a PIP.

It was a huge mistake.

Turns out when all other options are exhausted, a PIP can be a form of respect. In the hands of the right manager, an underperformer gets one last clear chance to show they can do the job. If they succeed, some the ugly baggage gets put behind them. And if they can't succeed, then the PIP sends a message that they are unsuited for the job at the company, and maybe even at the industry at large.

The alternative to PIP'ing an incompetent (not just an underperformer) is micromanagement. That comes with pretense, hostility, and disrespect to their person for an indefinite period of time.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#90

Post by stavros »

sunshowers wrote: post #86
stavros wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PIP should be the last chance to improve. You should have had many chances before that, with lots of clear feedback. Of course it's soul-destroying, but laying them off is worse.

People have things going on in their lives! What if it's not the employee's performance but the manager's that's concerning — it's the manager who should get the PIP? What if it's the CEO's fault for creating an environment where many employees are demotivated — what if the CEO should be the one getting the PIP? Tech still, to this day, has a problem retaining women and URMs. Conceptions of individual performance are…

I feel like this conversation is "bad PIPs are bad!" "but good PIPs are good" "no, bad!".

Sometimes, you can tell someone "listen, nothing else worked, and we tried for a while, so this is the last resort". Do you think it's better to fire people outright than to give them one last chance?

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