I hope they re-run this study with retatrutide vs semaglutide. Apparently retatrutide does a better job at preserving muscle, and some bodybuilders will take small dosages (.5 - 1mg a week) of it in order to lose stubborn fat but keep muscle.
Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
81–90 of 461 posts
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#82The study found that heart muscle decreased in both lean and obese mice. So any observed muscle loss might not be just from losing body mass and not having to work as hard.
But if you're already lean and then go on a calorie deficit (as a result of decreased appetite from taking the drug), then muscle mass will be lost through metabolism of muscle and other tissue.
Then the study states further that the proportion of muscle loss is higher than expected from calorie restriction alone.
My gut feeling here is that where there's smoke there's fire, and I predict dramatic class action 40 years in the making, either like tobacco, or like baby powder, depending on the actual long term health outcomes.
And, this is great research! We need more like this ASAP!
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve heard that anecdote from HN users many times but based on my meatspace social group of (mostly) California yuppies, that effect is vastly overstated. Even some of the diabetics I know on Ozempic have started using it as an excuse for a shittier diet. Now my sample size is barely ten people on Ozempic/Wegovy so take it with a grain of salt and what not, but I’m skeptical. I bet there’s a large group of people - p…
Odd Lots (Bloomberg finance podcast) had an episode back in June or something interviewing a food design consultant, and their focus groups came back very strongly in favor of healthier meal compositions. Agreed though, it's hard to know things :) Hopefully some real studies on this will be done soon.
Industry led focus group is not a legitimate source.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. I was with you up to here. In my experience it's easy to maintain a huge proportion of your lean tissue during a weight loss diet: Do some resistance training, get some protein, and don't lose weight too quickly. There's no need to go to the extreme of a PSMF - which will still have you lose a bunch of muscle on account of being too big a deficit. If you can kee…
Bodybuilders I know seem to have a a very difficult time keeping their muscle gains while on a cut, I don’t know why someone who is not in a gym 5+ days a week and on an extremely optimized heavy protein diet measured down to the gram would expect otherwise. Is it possible to go very slow and keep most of your lean muscle mass? Sure. Is it practical? I have my doubts. Part of the effectiveness of these drugs - for me…
I feel like a cut is a very specific type of weight loss where the person gets down to an unusually low body fat %. It’s to the point where each bit of fat loss is a significant portion of your body’s fat reserves. It seems different from when there is an abundance of easily accessible fat to burn.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#85> emerging research showing that up to 40 per cent of the weight lost by people using weight-loss drugs is actually muscle That's the sort of headlines that smells like bullshit to me. My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door. So to start with, if that's the case, all they are…
The next line of the article after that 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk…
> nutrient deficient diet (which is probably a majority of Americans)
First hit is some blogspam trying to sell me "Nutrient Therapy". Second hit is CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/nutrition-report/media/2nd-nutrition-rep...
> The Second Nutrition Report found less than 10% of the U.S. population had nutrition deficiencies for selected indicators.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Outside of cardiac muscle, which is a bit worrisome, 40% of weight loss being from muscles is incredibly typical for any diet that sheds pounds. There are very complex dietary regimes that can be followed to minimize this, but most studies have shown that they don't save any time compared to losing weight and then working to get the muscle back afterwards. > Dyck’s study comes on the heels of a commentary published i…
> There are very complex dietary regimes that can be followed to minimize this The dietary regime isn't complex -- just consume a LOT of protein. Something like 1-2 g/kg/d. And non-dietary: do strength training.
Yep, I can anecdotally confirm as I’m on such a routine right now.
I started losing weight from severe obesity with a caloric deficit but noticed I was also feeling weaker in general (aside from the tiredness that comes with eating under your TDEE).
I started going to a trainer and he had me change my macros so that I was consuming about 200g of protein per day in addition to 4 days per week of full body workouts on top of my cardio.
Since then I’ve lost an additional 150% of my initial weight loss, and have gained moderate muscle mass on top of that.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
The next line of the article after that 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk…
>Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. I was with you up to here. In my experience it's easy to maintain a huge proportion of your lean tissue during a weight loss diet: Do some resistance training, get some protein, and don't lose weight too quickly. There's no need to go to the extreme of a PSMF - which will still have you lose a bunch of muscle on account of being too big a deficit. If you can kee…
It's notoriously hard to lose fat without also losing muscle. That's why bodybuilders bulk well past their target muscle mass before they cut for competition. I agree that you can do a lot to mitigate it through protein intake and resistance training, but you'll almost certainly still lose muscle when you're in caloric deficit, regardless.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Odd Lots (Bloomberg finance podcast) had an episode back in June or something interviewing a food design consultant, and their focus groups came back very strongly in favor of healthier meal compositions. Agreed though, it's hard to know things :) Hopefully some real studies on this will be done soon.
Industry led focus group is not a legitimate source.
Uhhhh, in general this is true, but in this particular scenario they have a stronger incentive than almost anyone to understand true preference shifts created by these drugs.
It doesn't mean they end up with the correct findings, but they are absolutely incentivized to try to produce correct findings.
Lazy and inapplicable heuristics are not legitimate insights.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#89>My understand of those drugs is that they don't actually make you lose weight, they just cut your appetite so you can follow a diet to lose weight without hunger hammering at the door.
While acknowledging that the mechanism is different, this was the same effect of Ephedrine, which went through a similar craze as Ozempic before the full complications were known. My bet is that this will be similar, where the risks end up being outweighed by the benefit for extreme obesity and diabetics, but that the cosmetic weight loss aspect of it will become outlawed or highly regulated.
Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
The next line of the article after that 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk…
> The rather obvious problem is that these GLP1 agonists don't improve your diet My understanding from initial anecdotes is this is actually literally wrong. Which was surprising to me, too. But people on GLPs tend to prefer more nutritious food (high protein and high fiber). I'm not sure if this has been studied directly in clinical trials yet but I know that food manufacturers have been reorienting their products t…
This observation is very interesting. I hope that it is studied more closely and we can read some peer reviewed research on the matter. One idea popped into my head: Could part of the cause be that people's mood and self-esteem improves during (GLP1 agonist-induced low hunger) weight loss? TL;DR: If you feel like shit about yourself (and body), then you are more likely to eat poorly, and vice versa.