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A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
81–90 of 145 posts
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#82“Physician burnout” from documentation was the excuse for AI adoption - Stop Citrix or VMware or whatever. make a responsive emr where you don’t have to click buttons like a monkey
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#83I did a bunch of research essays into medical uses of AI/ML and I'm not terrified, in fact the single most significant use of these technologies is probably in or around healthcare. One of the most cited uses would be expert analysis of medical imaging, especially breast cancer imaging. There is a lot of context to unpack around breast cancer imaging, or more sucinctly put, controversial drama! The fact is there is a…
One very important part your comment doesn't mention: a real human being has to actually take images for the AI to analyze.
The amount of training a radiation technologist (the person who makes you put your body in uncomfortable positions when you break something) is significant. My partner has made a career of it, and the amount of school needed and clinical hours is non-trivial, and harder to do than becoming a nurse from what I understand.
They need to know as much about bones as orthopedic surgeons while also knowing how radiation works, as well as how the entire imagining tech stack works, while also having the soft skills needed to guide injured/ill patients to do difficult things (often in the midst of medical trauma).
The part where a doctor looks at images is really just a very small part of the entire "product." The radiologists who say "there's a broken arm" are never in the room, never see the patient, never have context. It's something that, frankly, an AI can do much more consistently and accurately at this point.
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#84Healthcare is a massive cost for people, businesses, and governments. >So we basically just become operators of the machines. Driving down the cost of manufacturing because of process standardization and automation brought down the cost of consumer goods, and labor's value. If you don't think this is coming for every single area of business, you're foolish. Driving down labor costs is the golden goose. We've been abl…
Ok, fine, but how do you vibe your sense of "automation and AI will help drive down the cost of healthcare" with the absolute undeniable reality that healthcare has been adopting automation for decades, and over the decades it has only gotten (exponentially) more and more expensive? While outcomes are stagnating or getting worse? Where is the disconnect between your sense of how reality should function, and how it is tangibly, actually functioning?
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#85> We didn’t call it AI at first. The first thing that happened was these new innovations just crept into our electronic medical record system. They were tools that monitored whether specific steps in patient treatment were being followed. If something was missed or hadn’t been done, the AI would send an alert. It was very primitive, and it was there to stop patients falling through the cracks.
Journalists LOVED The Checklist Manifesto when it came out in 2009, I guess if you call it AI then they will hate it? Similarly, in the early 2020s intuition was bad because of implicit bias, but now I guess it is good?
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#86Am I reading incorrectly or does this entire article come down to:
1. A calculated patient acuity score
2. Speech-based note-taking
I didn’t see any other AI taking over the hospital.
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#87Healthcare is a massive cost for people, businesses, and governments. >So we basically just become operators of the machines. Driving down the cost of manufacturing because of process standardization and automation brought down the cost of consumer goods, and labor's value. If you don't think this is coming for every single area of business, you're foolish. Driving down labor costs is the golden goose. We've been abl…
Ok, fine, but how do you vibe your sense of "automation and AI will help drive down the cost of healthcare" with the absolute undeniable reality that healthcare has been adopting automation for decades, and over the decades it has only gotten (exponentially) more and more expensive? While outcomes are stagnating or getting worse? Where is the disconnect between your sense of how reality should function, and how it is…
Outcomes have been getting worse for decades?
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#88This article feels “ripped from today’s headlines” for me, as my mother-in-law was recently in the ICU after a fall that caused head trauma. The level of AI-driven automated decision-making is unsettling, especially as it seems to allow large organizations to deflect accountability—“See? The AI made us do it!” I’m not entirely sure what guided her care—or lack thereof—but, as someone who frequently works in healthcar…
The article feels very much like a union rep fighting automation. If AI is provably worse, we should see that come up in the AI making 'bad calls' vs the human team. You would even see affects on health outcomes. One place I'd really like an all seeing eye AI overlord is in nursing home care. I have seen family members lie in filth with clear signs of an infection. I am confident, if we hadn't visited, seen this, and…
Sadly, the one thing I took from my time as an EMT and paramedic was which nursing homes to consider and which to avoid. I filed more than one complaint with the DOH.
It's a standing joke that whenever 911 crews respond to a nursing home, the report you'll get from staff will be a bingo game of:
- "I just got on shift; I don't know why you were called."
- "This is not my usual floor; I'm just covering while someone is on lunch. I don't know why you were called."
- [utterly unrealistic set of vitals, in either direction, healthy, lively vitals for someone who is not thriving, or "should be unconscious" vitals for someone lively and spry]
- [extended time waiting for patient notes, history, an outdated med list with everything they've taken in their ten years at the facility]
And so on.
I (generally) don't blame the floor staff (though some things, as you describe, are inexcusable) but management/ownership. The same management/ownership that has the policy to call 911 for anything more involved than a bandaid for some weird idea of managing liability, nurses that "aren't allowed" to do several interventions that they can, for the same reason, all the while the facility has a massive billboard out the front advertising "24/7 nursing care" (and fees/costs commensurate with that).
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#89Healthcare is a massive cost for people, businesses, and governments. >So we basically just become operators of the machines. Driving down the cost of manufacturing because of process standardization and automation brought down the cost of consumer goods, and labor's value. If you don't think this is coming for every single area of business, you're foolish. Driving down labor costs is the golden goose. We've been abl…
Ok, fine, but how do you vibe your sense of "automation and AI will help drive down the cost of healthcare" with the absolute undeniable reality that healthcare has been adopting automation for decades, and over the decades it has only gotten (exponentially) more and more expensive? While outcomes are stagnating or getting worse? Where is the disconnect between your sense of how reality should function, and how it is…
> over the decades it has only gotten (exponentially) more and more expensive
There is a lot of research on this question, and AFAIK there is no clear cut answer. It's probably a host of different reasons, but one of the non-nefarious ones is that the range of ailments we can treat has increased.
Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about increasing the supply of doctors rather than decreasing the time they spend with patients? I question the underlying premise that efficiency needs to increase.
Because the USA is for-profit healthcare industry they need to optimise and increase efficiency. That's the only way to make the numbers go up. Therefore fewer doctors, fewer nurses, fewer administrators (maybe), and more paying patients.
It's no better in other countries. Other country's health care systems are typically monopsonies, which means we get crappier results for lower prices. So instead of the doctor choosing to do 6 patients per hour instead of 4, it's the government.