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XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

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Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#81

Post by zaik »

cyberax wrote: post #76

I hope XMPP just goes away and stops distracting people from more productive avenues. It can't be fixed. It's dead. Matrix is the modern replacement. I used XMPP to implement a chat client within our application around 2012. It was a freaking nightmare. The roster system, the incompatibilities, the lack of standardized synchronization, the never-working group messaging.

> It can't be fixed. It's dead.

Lots of good XMPP implementations disprove this.

I hope Matrix just goes away and stops distracting the FOSS community from improving existing internet standards instead of custom protocols by random startups :)

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#82

Post by singpolyma3 »

WD-42 wrote: post #35
MattJ100 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that Pidgin's development didn't manage to keep up with the changing times. Stable branch is 10-15 years behind XMPP features. The developers are working on a Pidgin 3.0 (rewrite?) but that still has quite some way to go. Unfortunately Pidgin was one of the most popular ways to use XMPP back in the day, and this had a knock-on effect on XMPP's reputation as an out-of-date technology. People still…

Was it that pidgin didn’t keep up with features, or more likely that one by one the major platforms pulled xmpp support to the point where there was no reason for a normal person to use pidgin?

There were never any major platform with good XMPP support except for Google Talk anyway. So not sure about "one by one".

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#83

Post by tcfhgj »

SamWhited wrote: post #80
dingnuts wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real difference between XMPP and Matrix is that I can read the discussions about XMPP on this site without the CEO of the company that pretends not to own it, but does de facto own it through some kind of wannabe Sam Altman "it's actually a non profit that happens to be controlled by my for profit company" move, coming into the comments to denigrate anyone with an ounce of criticism for his product

(oh yah, FWIW he's done this to me too; shows up and accuses me of being biased against matrix and not disclosing my affiliation with XMPP stuff… meanwhile he controls a company and gets paid by them, I just chose to work on XMPP open source stuff instead of Matrix stuff and don't get paid for it)

Not being paid doesn't mean less biased. To the contrary: I expect a high bias since you choose to spend lots of time on it despite not being paid for it

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#84

Post by cyberax »

zaik wrote: post #81
cyberax wrote: post #76

I hope XMPP just goes away and stops distracting people from more productive avenues. It can't be fixed. It's dead. Matrix is the modern replacement. I used XMPP to implement a chat client within our application around 2012. It was a freaking nightmare. The roster system, the incompatibilities, the lack of standardized synchronization, the never-working group messaging.

> It can't be fixed. It's dead. Lots of good XMPP implementations disprove this. I hope Matrix just goes away and stops distracting the FOSS community from improving existing internet standards instead of custom protocols by random startups :)

> Lots of good XMPP implementations disprove this.

A list, please. For iOS, Android, macOS, Windows.

> I hope Matrix just goes away and stops distracting the FOSS community from improving existing internet standards instead of custom protocols by random startups :)

XMPP had its chance, it blew it.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#85

Post by Arathorn »

SamWhited wrote: post #40
pixelatedindex wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a “modern” equivalent to XMPP? How does it compare to the matrix protocol?

Matrix and XMPP operate in very different ways Matrix is a graph database synchronization protocol, whereas XMPP is event based. Let's use group chats as an example: with Matrix if you join a group chat hosted on another server, the entire history of the chat gets synced to your server. This means it's very resource intensive to scale, but very reliable since you pretty much always have chat history available and if…

Realising the irony of commenting on this given the sibling, but for the sake of accuracy:

> with Matrix if you join a group chat hosted on another server, the entire history of the chat gets synced to your server.

This is not true. By default most Matrix implementations sync the last 20 messages in a room when a server joins that room, pulling in other messages only on demand if a user back-paginates the room. Room state (i.e. key-value metadata about the room) also no longer gets synced in atomically at join - instead it gets pulled in in the background (so-called 'faster joins': https://element-hq.github.io/synapse/latest/development/syna...).

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#86

Post by singpolyma3 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #49
ValleZ wrote: post #46

XMPP was not a mobile friendly protocol for a while, had efficiently no security out of the box and lacked simplest things like image or other file transfers.

And nowadays it faces a marketing issue because it's extensible, so none of those problems go away because a solution exists somewhere. "Hey, I want to set up a modern messenger." "Sure! Here's XMPP, the ten extensions you need to enable and configure (problem left as an exercise for the reader), and the seven ports you need to open!" "... Okay? A Matrix node is apparently a drop-in solution; I'm gonna use that." XMP…

> problem left as an exercise for the reader

Or install something that comes set up the way you probably wanted and never think about it again. Just docker and poof. Like Snikket

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#87

Post by Lammy »

DennisP wrote: post #27
singpolyma3 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern equivalent to XMPP is XMPP. Like every other healthy and alive protocol it evolves over time to meet new needs.

Given the context above, does that mean the modern version is no longer "overcomplicated and hard to implement?"

If one tried to design a new protocol and implement All The Things then it would end up just as complicated, except now their user base would be split. XMPP of a decade ago didn't support lots of features that modern users will expect if they come over from other messaging systems.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#88

Post by singpolyma3 »

mxuribe wrote: post #42
skeptrune wrote: post #3

I think the big issue with XMPP are the clients. Element is so much better that it's hard not to recommend Matrix to people despite its bloat and metadata leakage problems. JMP/Snikket for tying a normal phone number to your XMPP @ are really convenient, but the clients remain a problem. Plus, SIP dialers are not supported on IOS afaik. I am really surprised there isn't a venture backed company pushing XMPP forward.…

I think its not only the clients...Rather its what the server side supports and to ensure clients align with that....And i think among a group of techy friends, well, they can coordinate the proper settings...but it becomes thorny when involving some not-techie buddies...Of course its possible, but, you know, the onboarding process is less than ideal. I say that not being an xmpp guru of coruse, so YMMV. > I am reall…

If you want to onboard a group of people you don't point them at "XMPP" the technology. You point them at a service or product that is built on XMPP, like Snikket.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#89

Post by cesarb »

darreninthenet wrote: post #64
IshKebab wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, most countries have a single instant messaging app (usually WhatsApp) that's dominant now so there's no big need for it I guess.

But dominant doesn't mean it's the only one... most of my friends are on WhatsApp, but I use iMessage to talk to my wife (unless it's a group of friends then it's back to WhatsApp), apart from one or two friends who aren't o ln WhatsApp and then I use FB messenger... we have one gaming group with one guy not on FB and one guy not on WhatsApp, so I'm the meatware bridge between them. And then I have people who only us…

> most of my friends are on WhatsApp, but I use iMessage to talk to my wife [...] apart from one or two friends who aren't o ln WhatsApp [...]

As shown in a more visual way: https://xkcd.com/1810/

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#90

Post by aidenn0 »

im3w1l wrote: post #24
WD-42 wrote: post #9

I really miss the days of being able to use pidgin to talk to everyone

These days I can't even use pidgin for xmpp, because the omemo plugin is too wonky. Now someone I'm sure will say I'm just holding it wrong and that may be so.. but I doesn't work for me despite trying for a reasonable amount of time to get it working. And regarding other protocols I'm too scared these days. Every company is running algorithms looking for deviants to perma-shadow-ban and I just can't risk something l…

> These days I can't even use pidgin for xmpp, because the omemo plugin is too wonky. Now someone I'm sure will say I'm just holding it wrong and that may be so.. but I doesn't work for me despite trying for a reasonable amount of time to get it working.

The libpurple (library behind Pidgin) support for xmpp is quite mediocre so it's not that you're holding it wrong.

Dino is great on Linux. There's an unofficial windows build that might or might not work. If it doesn't, then Gajim is "fine." Conversations is great on Android. I think Monal is the current best on iPhone, but I don't own an iPhone.

And the need for the existence of the above paragraph is, IMO, a big part of why XMPP isn't used. Nobody knows which clients to use, and the experience if you use an out-of-date client is terrible (seriously, emojis don't work between Psi (which is still listed on xmpp.org as a client, and was a great client 15 years ago) and Dino.

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