Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#81

Post by ToucanLoucan » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:15 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #59

FireBeyond wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And a lot of spam. A few months ago there was a little flame war between a few people. Company posted an ad and someone replied "this is spam, and you don't respond, just keep posting the same ad", and the company replied "no, I own the company and hand write this job ad every month to fit our future needs" which was patently a lie (exact same headcount, exact same three positions, every month for the las…

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

> It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments

All due respect: if an employer posts here offering for people to apply, that the employer in question is bad in some way, I don't see why that's considered "off topic." If a company sucks, we owe it to our fellow engineers to get the word out until they improve. A perfect example being the sorts that don't have any intention of filling the jobs they post.

In my mind the only sort of company that would avoid posting here due to the potential of being criticized by the HN userbase are exactly the sorts you don't want posting, so that seems like a win/win.

Just my 0.02.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#82

Post by thegrim33 » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:15 PM UTC

Well I opened the article, near the beginning I saw the text: "81% of recruiters admitted to posting ads for positions that were fake or already filled."

Instantly that felt completely insane to me, my bullshit detector went off the chart, so since they provided a source, I followed up on the source to see the evidence for myself.

What do you know, the source is from a "my perfect resume" website that apparently conducted a study on the issue, but they aren't providing the details of the study, aren't providing a paper , aren't providing the methodology or questions asked, aren't providing any details whatsoever, the only thing they provide is the "conclusions" of their study.

So, apparently because this random website supposedly conducted a study, and they say the result was "81% posted fake jobs", that makes it true.

Hey, I also conducted a study, and 14% posted fake jobs. There, my claim has just as much backing as theirs does.

Instantly lost interest in the "study" and the article based on it.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#83

Post by airstrike » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:19 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #59

FireBeyond wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And a lot of spam. A few months ago there was a little flame war between a few people. Company posted an ad and someone replied "this is spam, and you don't respond, just keep posting the same ad", and the company replied "no, I own the company and hand write this job ad every month to fit our future needs" which was patently a lie (exact same headcount, exact same three positions, every month for the las…

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

I think it's going to be hard to enforce that, unless you go through ycombinator.com/jobs

But I agree that's fair to expect from companies. Yes, they have potentially hundreds of applicants, but writing "We're sorry to inform that you have not been selected to interview" probably takes less than a minute, so spending less than an hour rejecting every applicant seems in line with the time I'd expect each candidate to spend preparing and submitting their application. Plus you can always automate a list of emails to send rejection messages to...

It's also a nice way to differentiate the Who's hiring? from all other job boards out there

Maybe make the "flag" feature work for users to "report" non-responsive employers. On repeat offenses, reach out to them saying they've been repeatedly reported? Just brainstorming

Perhaps the monthly postings should be handled via ycombinator.com/jobs and the thread here is just a dump of this month's new openings with links to applications there but not direct posts by companies?

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#84

Post by antihipocrat » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:20 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #59

FireBeyond wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And a lot of spam. A few months ago there was a little flame war between a few people. Company posted an ad and someone replied "this is spam, and you don't respond, just keep posting the same ad", and the company replied "no, I own the company and hand write this job ad every month to fit our future needs" which was patently a lie (exact same headcount, exact same three positions, every month for the las…

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

"Dear [applicant name], thank you for sending us your application.

We have decided not to progress your application further.

While making our decision we've noted your extensive experience at [previous company] and feel that your skillsets are highly valuable in the industry and hope you find success in your job search soon."

I actually received that from a major tech company, unfilled mail merge aliases included.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#85

Post by dang » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:20 PM UTC

airstrike wrote: post #83

dang wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

I think it's going to be hard to enforce that, unless you go through ycombinator.com/jobs But I agree that's fair to expect from companies. Yes, they have potentially hundreds of applicants, but writing "We're sorry to inform that you have not been selected to interview" probably takes less than a minute, so spending less than an hour rejecting every applicant seems in line with the time I'd expect each candidate to…

There's little enforcement happening in those threads anyway—they're too free-form, and manual intervention is too expensive. But adding a rule should hopefully still make a difference.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#86

Post by ouddv » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:20 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #69

KerrAvon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1B has evolved into a bizarre collaborative scam between the government and tech corporations; there is, in fact, a US citizen who can fill any software engineering role a US company has.

> there is, in fact, a US citizen who can fill any software engineering role a US company has. Right now I suspect you're probably right. But 2 or 3 years ago? If you're right then why would companies want to go through all of the extra paperwork and hoops to hire an H1B right now? Maybe the answer is "they can pay less"? But I'm not sure if it's actually all that much less than they could pay someone who's been look…

At large tech companies, the pay is entirely driven by level and rating; so there's no savings in salary; just added costs to comply with the directive.

It's endlessly frustrating that the US government wants to centrally plan my hiring decisions.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#87

Post by PittleyDunkin » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:21 PM UTC

KerrAvon wrote: post #38

DebtDeflation wrote: post #28

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

H1B has evolved into a bizarre collaborative scam between the government and tech corporations; there is, in fact, a US citizen who can fill any software engineering role a US company has.

Bizarre? Supporting business's whims is mostly what the government has existed to do for the last forty years. What's bizarre is that people expect our country to function normally when this is so blatant.

Yes, there's been mild movement away from this insanity, but we're still miles to the right of what actually supports the people who live here.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#88

Post by dang » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:23 PM UTC

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #81

dang wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

> It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments All due respect: if an employer posts here offering for people to apply, that the employer in question is bad in some way, I don't see why that's considered "off topic." If a company sucks, we owe it to our fellow engineers to get the word out until they improve. A perfect example being the sorts t…

It's because of the reasons I already mentioned, which are considerable.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#89

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:23 PM UTC

DebtDeflation wrote: post #28

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

Also back in the day, we would say we need X new staff, corporate would encourage us to advertise and interview, but when it came to extending and offer they would tell us we can't increase head count. Happened over and over till I left.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#90

Post by pharrington » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 8:24 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #59

FireBeyond wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And a lot of spam. A few months ago there was a little flame war between a few people. Company posted an ad and someone replied "this is spam, and you don't respond, just keep posting the same ad", and the company replied "no, I own the company and hand write this job ad every month to fit our future needs" which was patently a lie (exact same headcount, exact same three positions, every month for the las…

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

The problem isn't that the rules arent well specified enough. The problem is that too many agents with the most power in this exchange (ie employers) just violate people's trust. Dishonest agents need to be visibly held to account, and right now the only way that happens is by calling them out. But since that's forbidden, there's a conundrum.