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Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

londoncentric.media

81–89 of 89 posts

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#81
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TfL has built most of its fare collection systems in-house, indeed it licenses its fare collect technologies to other cities like New York. Also it’s not within TfLs or London Mayors gift to provide free transit, TfL is almost unique in that its costs are almost entirely covered by farebox collections, and they receive little to zero government subsidy. If London made transit free, they have to find an additional £7…

Tax cars further. They take up way more space than the average pedestrian and required more infrastructure to support and maintain.

That would be Mayoral career suicide at this point. Most voters are car owners.

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It probably doesn't need to be outsourced. We're well past the internet revolution and it's time for these core competencies to be reabsorbed by government departments. TfL’s ticketing system isn’t outsourced, it was built in house and is sold to other transit operators like New York’s MTA. The UK has no official identification card (something the public have rejected countless times), and in London many people don…

> TfL’s ticketing system isn’t outsourced The operation of it? Or the development of it? I'm seeing information that conflicts with this statement. > and in London many people don’t drive and don’t have a driving licence. My presumptions are rooted in the USA. For those that don't drive having a state ID card is still quite common. These always have barcodes on the back which would make them useful in POS like applic…

> The operation of it? Or the development of it? I'm seeing information that conflicts with this statement.

Both, although it’s a little more nuanced than that. The original oyster system was bought in from a company called Cubic, and Cubic still provide all the physical gates and readers on the TfL system. But the newer contactless/Tap-to-Pay system was developed in-house by TfL, and the old oyster system has been mostly migrated onto the ticketing system.

However TfL license the new system to Cubic, who then resell it to other Transit systems around the world.

But for London, both the development and operations of the ticketing system is managed in-house (they obviously contract out parts of that work, as TfL probably shouldn’t be in the business of designing, manufacturing and performing major refits of their physical barriers themselves etc)

> Is that also the case in the UK? Is there no similar system or demand for ID? Would those using it in this free application be less likely to have one?

No it’s not the case in the UK. There is no national/state ID, beyond a passport (which you only need if you intend to leave the UK). With regards to photo ID for proof of age, it’s a little complicated. People use a mix of expired passports if they have one, there are some recognised “age ID” cards that you can purchase, in London, a TfL issued photo Zip Card (the free travel Oyster card for those under 16, or under 20 in full time education) is often used as a form of Photo ID.

You don’t present photo ID here for job applications, or opening banking accounts, and most people never need to “cash” a cheque (I’ve personally never cashed a cheque), because bank transfers are fast (i.e. sub 1 second), free and secure. If you need to prove your identity for a bank or job application, it’s done via a slightly arcane mix of providing a proof of address (bank statement, utility bill etc), and some kind of vaguely official photo ID with your name.

Proving your identity in the UK is a slightly circular problem, as you often need to have some kind of proof of ID, to get a document that you can use to prove your identity, which often causes headaches for people who’ve recently immigrated here (natives will have something like a child bank account opened by their parents to provide that initial proof). But there are various escape hatches that break the circular dependency, although they’re not obvious.

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What free papers? The UK has no national identity card, so there is no officially recognised “free paper”. Both passports and driving licenses cost money.

Then make those free. We can't stand behind other poor implementations as an excuse to avoid appropriate levels of public service. What I'm trying to project is there's no reason to cast this as "people don't want poors riding trains." Of course people want this. It's absurd to suggest otherwise. Solve actual problems and stop giving contracts to people who abuse the public trust and effectively siphon tax money away…

> Of course people want this. It's absurd to suggest otherwise. Solve actual problems and stop giving contracts to people who abuse the public trust and effectively siphon tax money away from people who need it the most.

You’re making a lot of incorrect assumptions about how TfL works here. TfL don’t outsource their ticketing system, either its development or operation, it was built by TfL and it’s operated by TfL. There no private entity making a profit off this situation.

> The level of argumentation here is bizzare. We can't use IDs because of privacy but we will give them unique smart cards? We can't let them use IDs because those cost money for historical reasons but we will pay a third party for a single use smart card?

> The level of argumentation here is bizzare. We can't use IDs because of privacy but we will give them unique smart cards? We can't let them use IDs because those cost money for historical reasons but we will pay a third party for a single use smart card?

The TfL Photo Zip card for those eligible for free transit basically is a form of free photo ID in London. Just about every institution in London, and most of the UK will accept it as a form of photo ID. In London it basically is the “free papers” you think should be used to provide free transit, and you literally do just tap it on a reader and get free transit. But like all forms of ID it expires and needs to be renewed, unfortunately this incident at TfL is preventing those renewals from happening.

For the absolute avoidance of doubt here, TfL is for all intents and purposes an arm of the London regional government. TfL chairman is the mayor of London, any state funding it gets comes via the Greater London Authority. The state of TfL, and the services it provides to Londoners is a top tier political issue in every single mayoral election, because the London mayor is the single most powerful entity when it comes to the operation and direction of TfL as a whole.

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#84
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the 7 billion from the existing 37 billion and get rid of some existing stuff which is non-housing related.

What exactly would you get rid of? * Bin collections? * Social care for the young and elderly? * Street sweeping? * General road, pavement and cycle infrastructure maintenance? * Sports centres, libraries, schools? Councils are already stretched thin. Last year was the largest increase in council taxes the UK has seen in decades, and councils are going bust left right and centre as pretty much all central funding was…

> Bin collections?

Slightly increase the price/tax for that for single-family homes.

> Street sweeping?

Yes, at a limit, I'd choose not having clean streets over people not being able to afford using them, even by riding a bus.

> General road, pavement and cycle infrastructure maintenance?

I'd get rid of cycle infrastructure if it's more than a token percentage of said road-focused expenditures, because it's mostly the middle class that is using bicycles and, as such, money spent that way goes directly for the only benefit of said middle-classes. But, yes, I'd personally settle for roads with more holes if that means public transportation that doesn't cost 2000+ pounds per year, you can bet on that.

> Sports centres, libraries, schools?

Yes, I'd get rid of sports centers, libraries are, I guess, just a token expenditure.

> Social care for the young and elderly?

I guess this is where, in fact, most of the money goes, and this is where Britain is, to put it mildly, fucked up, because (going by your word) that expenditure mostly falls on the local administration. It shouldn't be that way, it should fall on the central government, but I guess that's a bigger political subject to tackle.

As a point of reference, I grew up in Eastern-Europe back in the '90s back when our roads were full of holes and social care had started to accumulate holes bigger than the Bermuda Triangle, but, amidst that destituteness, public transport (both inside the cities and connecting them) was still very affordable. In fact, if it hadn't been for that I wouldn't be writing this comment right here, it is because of those small prices that I could still afford to go to uni (yes, you could tell me that "we have procedures in places for just those cases!", but that's just layers of bureaucracy over layers of bureaucracy that just don't work when you need them the most, it's way easier to not need that bureaucracy in the first place).

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#85

It's amazing how much bureaucracy they're willing to spend money on to means-test a fundamental service. If you just made transit free at the point of service you wouldn't have free cards for all under 16, and some over 16, and all over 60, and discount fares for people in poverty. Cities spend so much money outsourcing the IT for fare collection, and the administration of budget programs, and ultimately the experien…

With that many tourists using and abusing London public transport, why should only Londoners pay for the service (via taxes - the money must come from somewhere)?

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#86
post #70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so fast. Contactless accounts for a huge volume of compensation claims due to faulty or badly-designed interchanges. I've lost count of the number of times my partner has been overcharged when travelling from Wimbledon to Waterloo.

Is your partner not following the signs saying where to tap in?

Been there. Done that. Even the guards admit it's unreliable.

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that won’t get close. Existing London car taxes only raise around £0.2 billion annually. Not a chance in hell you can raise that by 3500% without either public unrest, or such a dramatic change in behaviour that tax collection amounts drop, instead of raise (although I would personally love a car free London).

Are you counting fuel duties here, or only road tax?

Neither of those are London car taxes. I think the number refers to the congestion charge. ULEZ raises a similar amount though.

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#88
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay Mao.

> This is wildly unpopular. Case in point. No one's suggesting confiscating anything, yet some people can't contain themselves at the suggestion that maybe housing policy is broken.

The policy of people paying for homes then keeping those homes, even when, gasp, they get old?!

Demanding that older people "downsize" is a policy, and not one that's very savoury.

Re: Inside the Transport for London cyberattack

#89
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, they'll transfer all they own into a corporation. They can't tax assets like that on business because it'll crash the economy super quick Thanks for that. I've always thought that wealth isn't taxed heavily because it's the wealthy that make the laws. That still may be part of it, but this surely is too. As a side note, I'm puzzled as to where this seemingly prevalent (here, at least) sentiment of letting peo…

Wealth isn't taxed because most wealth, unlike income or other use taxes, are based on valuations that are extremely fragile. Let's say you open a corner bakery that does very well. You are making $1m/year and paying the government $200k/yr in corporation taxes. That leaves $800k/yr in the biz. A perpetuity paying $800k/yr at 5% discount rate is worth $16m (obviously this is a bad proxy for the value of a risky busin…

I think I get it, but it doesn't help the image that there are some who are so obviously abusing the system.

Everybody knows who they are. Everybody can see what they're doing, how they're using their position to avoid putting anything back in to the society that's made them all that wealth. And nobody can point to something and say "There! That exact thing right there they're doing should be illegal! Make a law!".

It's frustrating.

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