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Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

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Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#81

Post by consteval »

busterarm wrote: post #46
pixl97 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you grow up around a bunch of home schooled kids that only learned a bit of the Bible you begin to realize that having a wide ranging education across a bunch of topics is important to create people that aren't total gibbering idiots.

I've worked with a lot of engineers over the years who started off home schooled. Mostly they were from rural areas though. Interestingly, I work with a lot of people who do have a stay-at-home partner and homeschool their kids in large cities.

There's a big risk in social development for those who are home schooled. Most developers I've met are severely lacking in social skills, so they're maybe not the best group to use as an example.

In my personal experience, I haven't met a single home school adult who was well-adjusted. I have met some who became well-adjusted after working a demanding enough job (I used to work in a kitchen). I don't think software engineering is nearly demanding enough for that kind of development.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#82

Post by consteval »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #77
riskable wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite simple, really: The government shouldn't be giving money to religious institutions because that would be, "respecting an establishment of religion". You could argue that the 1st Amendment only applies to laws written by Congress and not the whims of state governments but the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that it does extend downwards like that. Then again, the Supreme Court also ruled that if a state…

Seems to be stretching the separation of church and state. As long as the schools meet certification and minimum curriculum, I dont see how it is different than the city buying concrete from a religious vendor.

It seems like an obvious example of separation of church and state. The state shouldn't be funding the indoctrination of people into a particular church.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#83

Post by loeg »

superkuh wrote: post #11
loeg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what end?

Everyone else in the story has their photo shown. I was curious what he looked like and figured the omission fill would be appreciated by others.

Ok. I don't think it's particularly interesting.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#84

Post by loeg »

casefields wrote: post #12
loeg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what end?

I imagine curiosity like most things on HN.

There's nothing particularly interesting about the dude's appearance. I recommend saving yourself a click and moving on.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#85

Post by s1artibartfast »

consteval wrote: post #82
s1artibartfast wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to be stretching the separation of church and state. As long as the schools meet certification and minimum curriculum, I dont see how it is different than the city buying concrete from a religious vendor.

It seems like an obvious example of separation of church and state. The state shouldn't be funding the indoctrination of people into a particular church.

the state isn't funding any particular church. It is giving a voucher that can be redeemed by any secular or religious school.

I think it would be a separation issue if vouchers 1) could only be used for one religion or 2) could only be used at secular schools.

The key is equal treatment, not enforcing atheism.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#86

Post by tptacek »

monero-xmr wrote: post #39
Suppafly wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of vouchers in general, especially if they allow public funds to go to religious institutions, but educational choice (as IJ terms it) is a tricky area. A lot of times these programs allow people to move between public schools or get additional funds for alternative programs that better suit their children's needs.

Even the head of the Chicago Teachers Union sends her kid to Catholic school, because the quality of the system she runs is appalling https://abc7chicago.com/stacy-davis-gates-private-school-ctu... Maybe giving money so more kids can attend Catholic schools is a good thing

Do you live in Chicago? I do, and grew up here. My mom taught in CPS, and we were all sent to Catholic school. Not because the schools were better (in fact: my mom often remarked on how much lower the teacher quality was in the parochial schools, because the comp was substantially lower), but because we were Catholic, and if you don't go to Catholic K-8, you have to go to CCD. This is an extremely normal Chicago story, and not necessarily the indictment of the system you think it is.

Gates-Davis also lives on the far south side, which has structural school quality problems that aren't reasonable to pin on CTU.

I don't like CTU. I'm generally not a fan of teachers unions in major metros (most major metro teachers are in fact surprisingly well compensated). But I'm a little tired of this dunk; it's not a good one.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#87

Post by recursivedoubts »

horsawlarway wrote: post #35
recursivedoubts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fourth amendment is more important than catching people illegally fishing.

The 4th explicitly doesn't cover "land". > right to be secure in their homes, papers, and effects It also explicitly lays out "unreasonable" as the qualifier. Personally... I don't think he has much of a case to challenge the state wording. So while I strongly support the 4th amendment, I don't really agree with the guy here. It sounds a lot like he's pissed off the officer by fishing illegally. My bigger takeaway is…

"if it saves just one illegally caught fish..."

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#88

Post by eesmith »

frumper wrote: post #79
busterarm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same tax dollars. It's paying for kids to go to school. That's a public good. You want society to do this. Why should your tax dollars only go to schools controlled by the state? Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?

OP seems to be saying if the non state controlled schools follow the rules as state schools then that is fine, but they currently don't. Not many private schools provide special education services for one.

You have interpreted my comment correctly. Thanks!

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#89

Post by eesmith »

busterarm wrote: post #66
eesmith wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should my tax dollars go to have your kids attend a non-public school, rather than the ones needing oxygen at a public one?

It's the same tax dollars. It's paying for kids to go to school. That's a public good. You want society to do this. Why should your tax dollars only go to schools controlled by the state? Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?

> Do you care that public schools in the US typically have worse outcomes and have to spend more per child to get there?

That statement is not true.

There are many problems with the non-public system. I'll use the term "voucher" school to mean a school which is not controlled by a school board whose members are voted for by the residents of the school catchment area. (This isn't quite correct, as there are public schools run by a school board controlled by the state.) A "voucher" school also receives either money directly from taxes, or indirectly through, for example, a tax credit to the school or to the parents of the student.

1) the finances are not public, and include cases where the non-profit voucher school pays rent to a for-profit company, and pays license fees to a for-profit company, where are three are owned by the same person. The non-profit is not incentivized to get the best deal, which means my tax dollars go to enrich the owner rather than the students.

2) voucher schools generally spend money on advertisements, which target the student population they prefer rather then the entire population. The money for advertisements reduces the amount of money available to schools. Good advertising beats good teaching, because the advertising comes first. A local voucher school advertised a few years ago that all students would get their own tablet for learning. Now this school is in financial troubles, and doesn't have enough staff.

3) voucher schools can select their student population through many means, for example, require parental involvement every week, which selects for richer families which have that amount of free time.

4) voucher schools have more freedom to expel students. If a student is unruly, rather than using expensive counseling to help resolve the issues, a voucher school can expel the student. If a student has subpar grades, the school can make it known that the student is unwelcome for the next year, and can use behavior problems as subtext to expel that student.

Thus, you have some voucher schools which appear to do well, but they are not held anywhere near the same standards and obligations as actual public schools.

I don't want my tax dollars going to voucher schools. If you want to sent your kid to a private school, go ahead. Just don't expect me to subsidize you.

Re: Landowner Sues After State Searches Property Without Warrant or Consent

#90

Post by Ferret7446 »

danaris wrote: post #72
busterarm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying you don't want parents to have the choice to send their children to better performing schools and provide better opportunities for their children? Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? Having gone to both public and private schools, while I had horrible experiences with both, at least there was teaching going on in my private schools. My public school experience was horrific,…

> Or are you saying that should only be a privilege of the rich? No: I don't think anyone should have the option of private schools. Yes, I think public education should be mandatory in the US. That way, when there are problems with the public school system in a given area, rather than just pulling their own children—and money—out, the rich people would be personally incentivized to find ways to make it better for ev…

They'll just do what they did in Baton Rouge. The people who care don't want to fight against the people actively making the situation worse.
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