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Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

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Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#81

Post by Spivak »

akira2501 wrote: post #44
tmtvl wrote: post #6

Wait, so the Google Play Store, which you can install alternatives to (F-Droid, Aurora, Amazon,...), and where you can easily install apps through other means (such as downloading an APK through your browser and running it from the file manager) is an illegal monopoly while the Apple App Store isn't? Well, I guess Google's market cap is only 2 trillion compared to Apple's 3 trillion, so I guess that's fair.

> is an illegal monopoly while the Apple App Store isn't? This lawsuit is focused on Google. It's existence or the facts conveyed within do not provide any cover to Apple. They don't prevent Apple from facing the same lawsuit or from being covered by the same judgement. Do you feel this way when we put a murderer away? I mean, "his murder was illegal, but yet, some people still get away with it?! What is this injusti…

> Would that be more "fair?"

Having the second ruling be consistent with the first? Following precedent? This is terrible for competition where two companies in the same market can live under different rules in the same jurisdiction.

Apple's monopoly is effectively blessed now.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#82

Post by kokada »

cma wrote: post #69
talldayo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which scare screens? I've sideloaded on Android for nearly a decade now, and the only one I've seen is the reasonable warning about third-party app sources when enabling it for the first time.

I believe the right thing I wanted to refer to is unattended app updates, enabled for third party sideloaded stores only with Android 12 or so. Maybe 12 added it back after it was taken away at some earlier point?

I am an Android user for a long time (since Android 2.2) and used pretty much every version from then on. Google devices (from Nexus to Android One devices and now Pixels) pretty much always allowed unattended updates for a long time (you may be right about Android 12, my memory is fuzzy here). And I never remember having scary warnings for sideloaded apps, sure, Android made it more difficult to install them (by having a permission per app instead a global permission, but I would say this was a very welcome change), but it was never convoluted or difficult.

But yes, non-Google devices make this way more difficult, e.g.: Xiaomi devices actually has a scary warnings and they trigger at each reinstall. Also, they messed up something in the install APIs so you can't update apps unattended, needing to trigger the popup to install at each update.

So yes, in general, this is not the fault of Google but third-party companies.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#83

Post by Spivak »

ribosometronome wrote: post #80
whimsicalism wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should all be circumventable. My phone, like my computer, should be able to install whatever code I damn well please.

The idea that we aren't allowed to sell limited purpose electronics seems pretty novel. A lot of the things I own have processors in them nowadays, are you suggesting the courts should require them all to create methodologies for us to run our own code on them?

Stallman literally buzzing with excitement at the prospect. Honestly if you're gonna go, you should probably go all the way in the manner you describe and level the playing field for everyone.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#84

Post by callc »

bsimpson wrote: post #38
ethbr1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I care about is having some healthy competition in the marketplace again. If that takes tying Google's hands behind its back for a few years, fine. Taking a 30% cut should have been, prima facie, evidence of monopoly abuse.

As I recall, the original App Store argument was "It would cost a lot more than 30% to mint CDs and sell them in Waldenbooks, so we're doing developers a favor by _only_ charging 30% to distribute."

There are a myriad of points which make this metaphor a insufficient argument at best (at worst intentionally obfuscating the nature of digital publishing and digital marketplaces as having similar physical analogues) in favor of the current app store landscape:

1. AFAIK anyone can manufacture and distribute CDs

2. The argument that anything below the cost to manu CDs is acceptable only holds water if you have an inefficient market that doesn’t reflect the actual cost of digital distribution.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#85

Post by advisedwang »

CryptoBanker wrote: post #13

I’m confused, I’ve been using 3rd party app stores on Android for years now?

From the article:

> Google will have to distribute rival third-party app stores *within* Google Play

Right now you have to side-load 3rd party apps.

Also Google must:

> * Stop requiring Google Play Billing for apps distributed on the Google Play Store

> * Let Android developers tell users about other ways to pay from within the Play Store

> * Let Android developers link to ways to download their apps outside of the Play Store

> * Let Android developers set their own prices for apps irrespective of Play Billing

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#86

Post by kaba0 »

mike_d wrote: post #22

Epic's "First Run" program does all the things they got mad at Apple and Google about. You don't have to pay any license fees for Unreal Engine if you use Epic exclusively for payments. They give you 100% revshare for 6 months if you agree to not ship your game on any other app store. Let's not kid ourselves, Epic never cared about consumer choice or a fair playing field, they only want the ability to profit without…

No companies (at least above the “tiny” category) care about anything, they are paper-clip machines and the only thing preventing them from extracting iron from our blood is the law.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#87

Post by dialup_sounds »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #7
tmtvl wrote: post #6

Wait, so the Google Play Store, which you can install alternatives to (F-Droid, Aurora, Amazon,...), and where you can easily install apps through other means (such as downloading an APK through your browser and running it from the file manager) is an illegal monopoly while the Apple App Store isn't? Well, I guess Google's market cap is only 2 trillion compared to Apple's 3 trillion, so I guess that's fair.

I was under the impression the App Store was indeed ruled a monopoly and that Apple was going to be made to open up third party app stores?

There's two+ different things happening that are easy to get mixed up:

In the US, after Epic Games v. Apple, Apple is required to open up in-app purchases to third parties.

In the EU, the Digital Markets Act declares the App Store a gatekeeper and requires Apple to support third-party stores.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#88

Post by lancesells »

dnissley wrote: post #57
ethbr1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not a great idea to point at a monopoly, as a defense of one's own monopoly, and claim "Yeah, but he did it worse." Both Google and Apple's platforms need to be cracked open to competition.

Sure, but I would argue that Google's platform was open enough in that it was possible to download and install alternative app stores. They shouldn't need to do most of the things that are being requested here, like distribute play store apps in those alternate stores or change their requirements about what payment systems are used in apps downloaded through their app store. For the most part I think they should stil…

I think the difference is Google's platform is also on other manufacturers devices? If Android only existed on Pixel devices it could be different.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#89

Post by xenadu02 »

tmtvl wrote: post #6

Wait, so the Google Play Store, which you can install alternatives to (F-Droid, Aurora, Amazon,...), and where you can easily install apps through other means (such as downloading an APK through your browser and running it from the file manager) is an illegal monopoly while the Apple App Store isn't? Well, I guess Google's market cap is only 2 trillion compared to Apple's 3 trillion, so I guess that's fair.

Not commenting on anything else about this but only pointing out that the law treats a company that sells a complete widget to the end user very differently from a company that sells a piece to someone who then sells the finished widget to the end user.

A lot of people don't seem to appreciate reasoning from principles around any of this stuff. They just want to be able to do X, Y, or Z and any ad-hoc law or court ruling that gets them there is A-OK with them, consequences be damned. Personally I find that unfortunate. I enjoy well-reasoned debate that thinks through the logical consequences of various policy decisions and how it affects everyone, not just end users exactly like themselves.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#90

Post by dialup_sounds »

georgeecollins wrote: post #59
clhodapp wrote: post #4

> and it must give rival third-party app stores access to the full catalog of Google Play apps That one feels a step too far to me. It seems like it should be the developer's job to share their app with third party stores, not Google's.

Google is the developer.

This applies to every app in the Play Store, not just Google's apps.
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