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Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

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Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to en…

there are graver flaws in your analysis. his so-called personal beliefs are shared and deliberately engendered through education. one may say, i think suicide should be prevented at all cost. but when they do so they’re not expressing a personal opinion but rather the result of their education and training. and education is conducted with the law in mind. ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to edu…

In my country you can send your children to any kind of religious or secular school, or school them at home. Education is not in any sense a feedback loop with a particular mainstream culture. Nor is it inculcating the law of the land as a belief system.

When I say 'personal opinion', I don't care where it arises from: Be it religion or heresy, or what your government has taught you or what your ancient culture dictates, that's just your opinion. Somewhere, someone believes otherwise.

Democracies which function well seek to strike a balance between those, not to obliterate the minority.

Minorities win in America, in every sense. Immigrant cultures and subculture and counterculture lead to innovation, to the extent they're allowed to thrive. The law recognizes this and, in large over a long time, adjusts to accommodate. Integration in the US is in many ways tolerance.

Hong Kong was a highly successful democracy until its freedom was taken. Taiwan is a democracy which respects minority opinion. Both are/were tolerant of protests which could never take place in mainland China. Who is even to say that China's government has anything to do with protecting culture or majority belief? A majority in China may well believe that their government is illegitimate, but simply cannot say so because "bodily survival takes precedence", exactly because the current order does interfere in threatening says. Although certainly, even this suppression of the majority pales in comparison to the horrific treatment of minorities there.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several flaws in your reasoning. Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to en…

> In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own. That's why I gave the example of forceful suicide prevention. That is the law in my democratic, non-theocratic country. Tell me how forcing someone not to commit suicide differs from forcing someone not to sin. In my view it's the same: You are limiting some…

To be clear, I don't believe the government should prevent people from committing suicide. Or limit any liberties which don't physically hurt someone else. I see a more compelling case for seatbelt laws, only because a flying body can kill a passenger.

If you were to be consistent, then the fact that someone else somewhere thinks you're sinning should be sufficient to ban your own behavior, whatever it is. Whether you're religious or not has nothing to do with it. Since you believe in limiting someone's liberty, you should believe that the most radical form of religion should limit yours.

In such a society, in practice, anything can be forced or banned. And it is. If someone dislikes you, any word you speak can be taken as an insult to religion or an insult to the government, and is punishable. Moreover, such a society might force you to take a drug, or decide to euthanize your disabled family member. Sure, it is "understandable" that a totalitarian government makes sinning illegal, but it's hard to think of anything more odious.

Once such a system is in place, your freedom to "question the values of society" or form your own personal opinion would cease to exist. Your view is only possible in a free society that prizes liberty, although it is essentially dangerous to the survival of the society you're lucky enough to live in.

The only way to avoid a totalitarian outcome is to tolerate other people having the freedom to make what are in your opinion mistakes. Which includes saying things you don't like. And not only to tolerate it, but to elevate it above all other frameworks.

The paradigm of "my opinion / our opinion should be the law" is what leads to totalitarianism.

Re: Iran successfully launches indigenous Chamran 1 satellite into space

#83
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that have to do with the CIA coup installing the Shah though?

It doesn't. It's just whataboutism to try to excuse unlawful interference of the US in other countries.

What does it have to do with the CIA coup installing the shah? Easy:

1) what happened in Iran? Socialist revolution, allied with a religious party ... followed by the religious side attacking their leftist "allies" when the state was toppled.

2) I find it hard to believe that Khomeini ordering his troops, after a referendum, to start executing leftists, and blinding yet more leftists (gouging one or two eyes out, which they have Hezbollah do again in last year's "woman, life, freedom" protests). It's a lot tougher to disagree with this strategy knowing that in the next country over leftists killed, tortured and maimed the clergy.

Like in most socialist revolutions (like in the red vs white terror in the Soviet Union), you were better off as one of the soldiers killing revolutionaries than you were as a "victorious" revolutionary. The reason leftists, at least the leaders, did a revolution turned out, surprise!, not to be social justice but power for themselves, and so they're far more scared of their allies than the police and army forces they need to keep control of what they've won.

Leftists brought the ayatollahs to power. Yes, this was partly in reaction to a British/US ("CIA") coup 20 years earlier, but ...

And I get it. Leftists have no allies willing to destroy western (or even non-Western) states for them anymore. So now they ally with islamists, who also want to destroy western states. What happened in Iran is a very in-your-face example of what would happen if a socialist-islamist alliance actually achieves anything: immediate terror attacks on leftists, followed by constant repression. And, to make matters worse, the Iranian population is screaming about this, regularly drawing attention to the problem. Which is a huge problem to grow leftist parties, because leftists don't have any other allies.

And yes, I'm not very leftist, but I must say, it is absolutely baffling to me that leftists would ally with conservative muslims, even if the Iran example did not exist.

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