Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation • Hacker News Board

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#81

Post by yard2010 » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 10:17 AM UTC

RachelF wrote: post #31

The irony is that Francesca Gino and Dan Ariely are famous for their pop-sci/TED talks studying dishonesty. Turns out they were dishonest themselves. https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/1190568472/dan-ariely-frances...

I would argue: that's just the tip of the iceberg. This is how it works. In a system in which there are external motivations (power, money, number of citations etc.) it's a problem of incentives, and should be solved by putting the emphasis on other values, as a culture. What you describe is a symptom.

Ofc, I'm not trying to defend such behavior.

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#82

Post by Hamuko » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 10:17 AM UTC

yard2010 wrote: post #77

teractiveodular wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the page: At present, Leif, Joe, and Uri do not have pro bono representation. The lawyers they’ve spoken to currently estimate that their defense could cost anywhere between $50,000 and $600,000 (depending on how far the lawsuit progresses).

That's scary, really. Having no money for this means you can't afford to fight these criminal crooks. Is this how this works in europe too?

In Europe, the losing party of a lawsuit generally has to pay for the winner's legal expenses ("English rule"). Never had to go to court so I don't know what you do about the expenses in the meanwhile, but at least there's light at the end of the tunnel when someone sues you just for the heck of it.

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#83

Post by Hamuko » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 10:23 AM UTC

TrackerFF wrote: post #74

apwheele wrote: post #13

While a favorable ruling for the Data Colada defendants seemed incredibly likely in the end (and of course being dismissed pre-trial before discovery is a good thing). But it still took over a year, and consisted of several pre-trial hearings with multiple back and forths between them. If I ctrl-f https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.259... I see Pyle (their lawyer) listed 11 times. All the motion…

I’m not familiar with civil court in the US, but wouldn’t the plaintiff have to cover the legal expenses of the defendant, if the defendant is cleared? Or similar rulings.

No, both sides of a lawsuit are generally responsible for their own costs regardless of what the outcome is. There are some caveats to this, like anti-SLAPP laws, but that's how it generally goes. This is basically in contrast to every other western democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_rule_(attorney%27s_fe...

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#84

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 10:27 AM UTC

Validark wrote: post #29

“[s]cientific controversies must be settled by the methods of science rather than by the methods of litigation” Boom. And the researchers didn't accuse a person of fabrication, they accused the data of being fabricated.

[deleted]

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#85

Post by apwheele » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 10:43 AM UTC

rfw300 wrote: post #28

apwheele wrote: post #13

While a favorable ruling for the Data Colada defendants seemed incredibly likely in the end (and of course being dismissed pre-trial before discovery is a good thing). But it still took over a year, and consisted of several pre-trial hearings with multiple back and forths between them. If I ctrl-f https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.259... I see Pyle (their lawyer) listed 11 times. All the motion…

Fortunately, they were able to raise quite a bit of money (>$300K) on GoFundMe: https://www.gofundme.com/f/uhbka-support-data-coladas-legal-...

I was aware of that, but I would still be interested to know the actual costs. I do not think "it is ok to blog about potential fraud in scientific publications because GoFundMe will pay for my lawyers" is a good assumption for most individuals.

I see people saying it is a win for open science, and I just look at that Court Listener page and it still fills me with angst.

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#86

Post by hdhfjfidi » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 10:53 AM UTC

[flagged]

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#87

Post by FergusArgyll » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 11:09 AM UTC

seanhunter wrote: post #64

adastra22 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the Nobel committee gave the Peace prize to Kissinger. I’m not sure they’re a good bellwether for anything.

Tom Lehrer famously retired when Kissinger got the peace prize declaring satire to be dead. The really funny one to me is they gave literature to Winston Churchill because they thought they probably couldn't give him peace, then when Kissinger came up they thought "Why not?"

Churchill's autobiography [0] is actually a great read. I'm nowhere near qualified to judge a literature Nobel prize but I loved it. His history of the English speaking peoples is pretty good too.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Early_Life

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#88

Post by pfdietz » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 11:16 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #51

apwheele wrote: post #13

While a favorable ruling for the Data Colada defendants seemed incredibly likely in the end (and of course being dismissed pre-trial before discovery is a good thing). But it still took over a year, and consisted of several pre-trial hearings with multiple back and forths between them. If I ctrl-f https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.259... I see Pyle (their lawyer) listed 11 times. All the motion…

> Or am I overestimating. Ahh, sweet summer child who has never seen these kind of legal fees. I do hope Gino gets socked with their legal fees.

This is why we need anti-SLAPP laws.

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#89

Post by visarga » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 11:18 AM UTC

RachelF wrote: post #31

The irony is that Francesca Gino and Dan Ariely are famous for their pop-sci/TED talks studying dishonesty. Turns out they were dishonest themselves. https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/1190568472/dan-ariely-frances...

Maybe they were doing "first-person research" on dishonesty. /s

Re: Data sleuths who spotted research misconduct cleared of defamation

#90

Post by Cthulhu_ » Fri, Sep 13, 2024, 11:37 AM UTC

Mkengine wrote: post #80

yard2010 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's scary, really. Having no money for this means you can't afford to fight these criminal crooks. Is this how this works in europe too?

No, where I live (Germany) you usually have a legal insurance to cover this. The costs are around 30€ per month in my case.

I live next door and have some legal insurance, but you need to pay attention to what coverage you get, because you need to select what categories you want coverage for; vehicles (e.g. if someone who caused an accident refuses to cooperate with you), consumer/housing disputes, work and salary, taxes / stocks, family issues like inheritances, second homes / real estate, etc etc etc. And of course, you can't take out insurance for an ongoing issue, it doesn't cover criminal cases (when you did a bad), business cases, etc.