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The quest for a Wiki-less game

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81–90 of 113 posts

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#81
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like exploring and discovering and figuring things out. I understand this is very common, but for me: "discovering and figuring things out" in games often becomes: "guess what the game devs want me to do." Oh, is there something on the other side of that hill? Meh, not really. What about at the top of that cliff? Oh I can only sort of climb it? Should I keep trying or am I just going to hit an invisible wall? Is…

For me, this is mostly about what kind of information a player expects to find in a game. For example in Overwatch 2, there are no numbers on abilities. It's just something like "fires a rocket at the enemy" - how much damage does the rocket do? How long is the cooldown? Can it crit if it hits an enemy in the head? In other games there might be items or talents with tooltips like "increases your damage" - how much? I…

> I like games where this kind of information is easily available. I won't look up how to complete a quest or something unless I'm completely stuck on it, but I will look up numbers so I can make informed decisions instead of just guessing what might be good.

Isn't that even more immersion- and game-breaking? Figuring out what kind of attacks have what kind of effect on what kind of enemy is generally part of the game.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#82
post #7

Minecraft is a good counterexample to what the author wants. People look up recipes all the time on wiki and yet Minecraft is the #1 best selling game, so obviously it isn't an issue in the real world.

Minecraft is still pretty opaque. It's gotten a lot better with the recipe book and advancement list giving some guides. But if you'd never played or interacted with Minecraft before and were dropped into the game I'm not sure you'd ever understand how to do certain things without outside help - be that the wiki or watching another player. Are the ruined portals dotted around enough to make you realise that you can craft a nether portal? How would you figure out how to make eyes of ender? Even if you made one would you understand what it does? Once you found a stronghold it's not unreasonable that you'd figure out how to open the portal, and once in the end the fight with the dragon should be pretty obvious (even if it takes you a while to figure out an effective strategy). But what then, would you find the end gateway and see the outlying end islands? Would you wander around enough to find a city and a ship? Would you understand what Elytra do, or what Shulker boxes do? Both of those elements (Elytra and Shulker Boxes) are so fundamental to how the game is actually played that it's a different game without them.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#83
When it comes to games where learning/withholding information is an important element (so not platformers), I think there's two main design goals to consider if you want to avoid wikis:

* Give good in-game info. Players resort to wikis because they don't feel like they know what they're doing and there's nothing more awful than making a choice you aren't ready for. Roguelikes tend to be varying levels of this; Risk of Rain for example will absolutely give you the exact percentages for its items in the collection menu, but during a run you don't need those percentages to know what you should pick. The bad side of this is The Binding of Isaac, which just has items that do not work at all, for any player whatsoever. Isaac is a game where you open a wiki/cheatsheet just to make sure you aren't picking up a run-ending item. CRPGs are universally terrible at this, something only amplified by their dice roll system. Disco Elysium is the only CRPG I've played that made choices work without pulling up a wiki because it makes it very clear early on that most consequences are yours and it will not lie to you about how far your choices will reach.

* The Wiki Will Not Save You. This is for games like Nethack. Nethack has a wiki. Nethack also has so much depth that a single human will struggle to not just learn it, but might screw up even when they have all knowledge they need. Very difficult to design without alienating your players, but if it works, it's probably the best way to avoid wiki syndrome since there's so much info that most players will just end up mentally arranging the information they themselves need. (Noita I'd consider to be a partial success at this, where the wiki contains all valuable info for achievements without learning Swedish, but the actual spellcrafting and core loop is something with so much depth that every player I've seen try it ends up with their own preferred combos.)

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#84

Really disagree with the hypothesis the author has, and especially don't think that the player experience is hindered (at all) by searching for things in an external wiki. Most of the games I really like (Factorio, Dwarf Fortress, Subnautica, Valheim, Satisfactory, recently Shapez2 as examples) I enjoy partly because of the active community (and wikis are obviously part of that). I love seeing solutions that other pe…

There's a category of games whose depth goes so hard that they assume engagement outside of the application, and then there's Mega Man games who were built under the assumption that the player will enjoy trial and error, and to attempt to push through making the wrong stage choice by learning how to dodge boss mechanics. I firmly believe that the internet normalized metagaming as a side-effect (guides, talk to friend…

Games should be designed for the world and players that exist rather than the audience the creator wishes they had. Ideally you shouldn't push players to search the internet, but you definitely shouldn't design your game such that searching the internet takes the fun out of it. Because like it or not, your players will search the internet.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#86
post #32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this statement absolutely does not apply to me and I like that one of the answer point that the use of a wiki might be a failure from the game. Good example for this is the Witcher 3 ending. One of the ending which I would consider the most favorable is almost an easter egg and rely on specific answer in barely related dialogs. Easter egg are nice but don’t put the ending I’m most interested in behind some "choi…

>Easter egg are nice but don’t put the ending I’m most interested in behind some "choice" I made ... Never play a Nier game lol

In Nier it's a lot less annoying because the game is specifically about that and makes it clear that it's about that.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#87
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has that really changed recently? Different people have always enjoyed different things, and some don't like puzzles. That was as true a hundred years ago as now.

Yes. But modern games also evolved to appeal to people who don't like to be challenged and look for a casual rewarding experience. It becomes quite obvious when you play a game of the early 90s and compare it to gameplay of today. If you couldn't identify(!) and solve the puzzle in a LucasArts Adventure Game, you were stuck, if you repeatedly died in Super Mario / Sonic the Hedgehog you had to restart from Level 1.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but if you Game Over in SMB you can resume from the same world by pressing A and Start.

This is one of three things I would time travel to tell my childhood self.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#88

The problem is that two different systems collide (in the example of Terraria). Having an open world game and a learning curve for the things the user needs to understand to progress. Looking up informations in a wiki most often happens when the game gets boring or overly complex for the player to have fun (check Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's flow theory on that). Games that do that well, such as Zelda (which does this v…

Terraria arguably more has a scale problem. There's in-game interfaces for pretty much all the things players need (crafting recipes, item effects, instructions on where to go next, recent update added a bestiary that fills out as you fight enemies/bosses), but the problem is that all these interfaces (minus bestiary) were originally designed for a gameplay loop that ended by the time the player fights what's now the third progression boss in the game.

Obscure NPC comments work if there's only like 20 secrets to push for. You'll need some tracker once you go above that number. Crafting recipes stop having any interesting thumbing through for cool new things when to find them you need to talk to an NPC who just gives you a list of all things you can craft with an item you're holding (especially common early game since a lot of minable materials end up in late game recipes). Item effect descriptions are too limited to explain all relevant effects, which pushes people further to a wiki.

Wiki syndrome tends to occur if the game has a bad UI to explain itself. Weirdly, having no UI for it can sometimes be better for this sort of thing; players are pretty willing to accept "behind the scenes magic" as long as the info they do have is giving them the idea that it's working. (Classic horror games like Resident Evil are a good example where a "no UI is better than some UI" works.)

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#89
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and No, i think modern games lead more people to be like this. Because quest markers and gps navigations and hints and creative/story modes. Also a heavy emphasis on the rewards rather than the quest. I notice this myself when going back to older games like Final Fantasy 7 or 8 and misremembering how complex and complicated the UI, Menus and systems are. You just get used to these things, but i also think they ar…

Don't forget the Yellow Paint Epidemic. Some game devs don't even want to risk the chance that players might have to stop and explore a little bit before they find the right path to continue the game.

That's not the fear. The fear is that the player will get stuck and simply stop playing because it's frustrating instead of fun.

The way that devs determine where the line is for "most people that play get frustrated and give up" and "most people figure it out and keep playing"

It's certainly possible to design a game where the intuition of the player matches a less contrived looking world, bit it's a lot harder. On the other hand, having a convention that climbable surfaces will be blazed yellow, and teaching it early in the game is comparatively easy.

There's also aspects of pacing and focus to consider. A game that ebbs and flows in it's intensity often feels better to play than one that's high intensity all the time. So if your game is mostly about combat, you'll want to break up big fights with lower energy experiences. But those lower energy experiences really aren't "the game" in a sense, they're a kind of filler that makes the high energy experiences feel more fun. It can't be completely boring, but it should be easier than the primary gameplay experience and also have lower stakes. That's a big reason why do many actiony games have blatantly obvious climbing and puzzles. It keeps the player lightly engaged while letting them catch their breath before the next set piece.

It's not the only way to build games by any means, but it is a generally effective, and consistently reliable, template.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#90
post #73

I’ve been playing Baldur’s Gate 3. I remember being very proud of winning BG1 without looking up hints. Now I find myself on the wiki. Why? I’m almost 50. I’ve got kids, businesses, life, etc… I can’t play a game for hours on end of immersion every night. I get to game in an hour here hour there slices through the week. If I spent 8 of those slices looking for some random nugget instead of moving the story forward th…

I've been playing BG3 for over a year now and it breaks pretty much all the rules in the accepted answer. There are puzzles that are only skippable with non-obvious cheesing. In-game knowledge is heavily relied upon. The quest journal is overly vague (and buggy sometimes). Item and spell descriptions are good at least, but many of those come from D&D anyway.

The absolute worst offender is "Don't give choices with unexpected or unclear outcomes". Almost every decision has unclear outcomes, some with devastating consequences on later phases of the game.

It's an impressive game with a great story and great combat, but only the most hardcore players are exempt from the mandatory save-scumming and wiki-reading IMO.

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