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What to do about America's killer cars

economist.com

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Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#81

Post by ojhughes »

kortilla wrote: post #36
misun78 wrote: post #3

Let me be the first one to say it - anyone who drives a large pick-up truck for non-commercial reasons is a grade A asshole. SUV drivers aren't that far off, though I sympathize with the game theory element of buying SUVs to protect against other larger cars -- but I would expect you to take accountability and drive slower and safer than smaller cars. These monstrosities are environmentally unfriendly, pedestrian unf…

Anyone who thinks large pickup trucks are only for “commercial use” is a knuckle-dragging city-dweller. Now that we both have the name calling out of the way, how would you suggest I tow my utility trailer without a truck?

People in Europe manage to tow large double axle caravans using standard cars.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#82

Post by aziaziazi »

Spivak wrote: post #23
autoexec wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are valid non-commercial reasons for having trucks and SUVs, but most of the people I know who have them just like big vehicles. They'll say that when they are driving regular cars it's hard to see what's going on around them because of all the SUVs and trucks on the road and the higher headlights of trucks and cars are blinding. It doesn't seem to bother them that they create those same problems for everyone e…

We're in a prisoner's dilemma situation and folks are acting rationally within it. Trying to blame the individual isn't likely to go anywhere. You can't control other people, only your response and this is what you can do. Without a law that forces coordination so we get back to the good outcome it will keep happening. Sadly it's politically untenable in most (all?) the US not least of which because people will just…

> Sadly it's politically untenable in most (all?) the US not least of which because people will just buy trucks in other states that allow them.

Couldn’t a state law decide what vehicle one can use on their road, instead of what one can buy?

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#83

Post by [deleted] »

trog wrote: post #74
_yb2s wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty absurd… there are plenty of non commercial reasons to use a truck- towing trailers, hauling wood, etc. they’re pretty essential for people that live in the country, do subsistence farming, or build/maintain their own house. I grew up in the country in a house my dad built, and we got much of our food from plants and animals we raised- we needed a truck. Ultimately all motor vehicles are pretty dangerou…

80%+ of Americans live in cities - is hauling wood and activities related to subsistence farming a regular priority? I live in Australia and am surrounded by people that choose to drive massive dual cab utes (trucks) as a lifestyle choice - they are mostly used for commuting. This is insane. I have no problem with tradies driving utes to move supplies and tools to their workplace. But I would say at least half of the…

[deleted]

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#84

Post by timbit42 »

binary132 wrote: post #67
DevKoala wrote: post #44

I drove a Miata for 11 years, even a regular sized car would be a mortal threat. I drive an SUV now and I plan on driving a bigger safer car once I have a family. It is an arms race on the road.

the safety statistics are unavoidably obvious.

It's safer for those in the larger vehicle but more people die in large/small vehicle accidents than the accidents where both vehicles are the same size.

If your vehicle causes the death of someone, that death should be considered pre-meditated.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#85

Post by Spivak »

aziaziazi wrote: post #82
Spivak wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're in a prisoner's dilemma situation and folks are acting rationally within it. Trying to blame the individual isn't likely to go anywhere. You can't control other people, only your response and this is what you can do. Without a law that forces coordination so we get back to the good outcome it will keep happening. Sadly it's politically untenable in most (all?) the US not least of which because people will just…

> Sadly it's politically untenable in most (all?) the US not least of which because people will just buy trucks in other states that allow them. Couldn’t a state law decide what vehicle one can use on their road, instead of what one can buy?

This is what Cali does with their emissions standards but it also seems like people who care worked around it by just registering their cars in other states. And I say this with all the love in the world, if there's any group of people who will massively inconvenience themselves to spite the government it's truck owners.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#86

Post by rootusrootus »

paulmd wrote: post #70
rootusrootus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that applies just as well to driving any car, eating any meat, etc. Very little of modern human living is particularly sustainable or healthy.

“if you don’t like trucks having 8-foot-tall grilles maybe you should just go back to living in the woods!” what a thought-provoking and non-inflammatory prompt you provided us

It's difficult to convey nuance in a simple text post on the Internet, but in good faith I will assume you are intending to be ironic.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#87

Post by rootusrootus »

paulmd wrote: post #69
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Japanese countryside I see people use kei trucks for these tasks. They're tiny but they can haul a lot of stuff.

Well, those are flat-out illegal here and importing them is made illegal except under a narrow set of circumstances so that the auto industry doesn’t have to compete.

No, it has nothing to do with competition, and everything to do with kei cars being underpowered. They can't keep up with the speed of traffic on the highway and they'd be a safety hazard to other motorists.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#88

Post by paulmd »

rootusrootus wrote: post #87
paulmd wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, those are flat-out illegal here and importing them is made illegal except under a narrow set of circumstances so that the auto industry doesn’t have to compete.

No, it has nothing to do with competition, and everything to do with kei cars being underpowered. They can't keep up with the speed of traffic on the highway and they'd be a safety hazard to other motorists.

There’s lots of vehicles that can’t get on a freeway. There’s a sign on every freeway onramp. That’s something we literally already handle so that’s not the problem.

If that were the case they would be classed as Neighborhood Vehicles and so on. You can buy a golf-cart or 4x4 and drive it on public roads after all. Just not a freeway.

It literally, directly, unequivocally is protectionism and insisting otherwise is ahistorical and factually incorrect. It’s a vestige of a 1964 protectionist trade war with Japan that the US auto-industry lobbied their way into keeping even after the other provisions were lifted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#89

Post by binary132 »

timbit42 wrote: post #84
binary132 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the safety statistics are unavoidably obvious.

It's safer for those in the larger vehicle but more people die in large/small vehicle accidents than the accidents where both vehicles are the same size. If your vehicle causes the death of someone, that death should be considered pre-meditated.

“You should increase the chances of death of your family because it might decrease someone else’s chance of death” is not a compelling argument that will work naturally on most people.

Re: What to do about America's killer cars

#90

Post by paulmd »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #72
paulmd wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those are SUV-class vehicles and a minivan is pretty much the quintessential SUV. Other than styling there really isn’t a difference between a traverse and a windstar or whatever.

One big difference, from a "killer cars" perspective, is the height of the front hood: https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-odyssey-2014-... (Sorry they don't seem to have the Windstar on carsized, but the honda odyssey is a pretty close match). Station wagons and SUVs are different vehicles. SUVs are basically extended-cab sedans, whereas SUVs are built with higher ground clearance and a higher-center of g…

no need to apologize, I was just using a windstar as an example of a generic 90s minivan, not as some super specific example. :)

that's an interesting comparison tool!

but yeah my point is more related to size and capacity than things like chassis. the fact that the windstar is comparably sized is the point I was trying to make.

it's a fair point that the hood is significantly different though, and I think that seems to be one of the biggest takeaways from the discussion here, that's specifically problematic and dangerous as a design element.

and if your point is that a truck chassis overall increases the weight and so on, and just makes it a heavier, more dangerous vehicle... that's probably true to some extent too, although a van chassis was never exactly "light". I still don’t fully agree with the implication that there’s a meaningful difference between a windstar or Astro van and a traverse as far as vehicle classification. They’re all utes really.

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