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My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

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Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#81

Post by solarmist »

naming_the_user wrote: post #60
sandspar wrote: post #19

I've seen a few sides of money. Raised upper class, lost it all and became underclass, then made it back. I'm always amazed at how limited rich people's worldview is. The average software developer, coastal liberal etc. They've never felt terror, the visceral feeling of being terrified. They've never been predated upon. They've never been used and discarded. The underclass lives with this stuff every day, 24/7, and r…

I think that you're mixing up a few things here to be honest. I grew up poor and I don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about. Terror? Predation? Being used and discarded? No, we just didn't have that much money, every penny had to be counted, our horizons were quite low, we lived in cheap areas. Now, if we talk about things like bad parenting / broken families, dodgy immigration status, etc, I think I ca…

There's being stable, but poor and there poor without the stability of being able to consistently afford housing. Even without the added curse of bad parenting unstable parents.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#82

Post by rufus_foreman »

analyte123 wrote: post #45
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a guy like the one in the post to show up, you probably would have had to completely ignore probably a dozen of these documents for at least 6 months, not paying your mortgage all along. I find it interesting that in all of these discussions it's treated as known that the person at hand is ignoring the notices and just pretending they aren't in danger of losing their home, just like in issues of evictions for r…

I'm aware that many of these people couldn't pay, mostly for lamentable reasons outside of their control, but pretending nothing is wrong usually doesn't help a bad situation. Ignoring letters from the IRS doesn't make you not owe them taxes. Ignoring letters from your lender or their lawyer doesn't make you owe less money. You still owe the money and it costs you interest and time that you could use to negotiate a s…

>> In any case, it's a big stretch to call eviction "state violence"

No, it's not, that's exactly what it is. A guy with a gun and a badge coming to your residence to enforce a contract is "state violence".

To me that's a legitimate use of state violence, but let's call it what it is. No, not everyone gets to enforce their contracts with violence, that's called "The state monopoly on violence".

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#83

Post by jolmg »

coding123 wrote: post #9

There needs to be some standard addendum attached to homes as an option that anyone selling a home can attach to the sale. Something like: This house cannot be used as an investment vehicle. It cannot be sold by a real-estate agent with a contract of more than 1%. It cannot be used as a rental. It cannot be sold for more than inflation would allow. Anyone found violating this addendum may be sued. All proceeds from t…

> It cannot be used as a rental.

It's not just the home-buying market where prices are high. It's also the home-rental market.

> so that no one has to be homeless anymore.

People that can't buy may no longer be able to rent either because of the supply you constrained. Homelessness would probably go up.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#84

Post by closeparen »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #5
analyte123 wrote: post #4

During this same time period I had a project at a part-time gig which involved updating document templates and adding a few fields here and there for a legal application. The application was used by a law firm which specialized in mortgages. So I saw the details of various documents one is served in these situations: notice of default, acceleration notices, notice to vacate, and ultimately evictions and foreclosure a…

> you probably would have had to completely ignore probably a dozen of these documents for at least 6 months, not paying your mortgage all along. Fun-fact: thems the benefits of being a mortgage holder. If you're a tenant that's renting, you get no such legal protections - let alone discretion from whichever faceless entity actually owns the property: where I am in King County WA, I think, at most you can get 30 days…

The bank will recover the money it lent you at the foreclosure sale; there's only the time-value-of-money element to whether they see it sooner or later.

The landlord will never be reimbursed for the months of rent not paid, and is paying the mortgage out of their own pocket during this time.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#85

Post by orangecat »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #82
analyte123 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware that many of these people couldn't pay, mostly for lamentable reasons outside of their control, but pretending nothing is wrong usually doesn't help a bad situation. Ignoring letters from the IRS doesn't make you not owe them taxes. Ignoring letters from your lender or their lawyer doesn't make you owe less money. You still owe the money and it costs you interest and time that you could use to negotiate a s…

>> In any case, it's a big stretch to call eviction "state violence" No, it's not, that's exactly what it is. A guy with a gun and a badge coming to your residence to enforce a contract is "state violence". To me that's a legitimate use of state violence, but let's call it what it is. No, not everyone gets to enforce their contracts with violence, that's called "The state monopoly on violence".

A guy with a gun and a badge coming to your residence

"your" is questionable in that scenario.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#86

Post by hirvi74 »

naming_the_user wrote: post #54
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a guy like the one in the post to show up, you probably would have had to completely ignore probably a dozen of these documents for at least 6 months, not paying your mortgage all along. I find it interesting that in all of these discussions it's treated as known that the person at hand is ignoring the notices and just pretending they aren't in danger of losing their home, just like in issues of evictions for r…

I think it's a bit less dramatic than that really - most people accept that the world we live in has both rights and responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is that by paying for the loans you take out, in exchange you get to keep the things that you've bought using them, permanently once you've paid it off. I might, one day, be unable to pay my mortgage. That's a risk I'm taking. People tend to get super emo…

> One of those responsibilities is that by paying for the loans you take out

Sure, if one is a commoner.

If one is a large bank, then the American taxpayers can be forced to foot the bill for the government-funded bailout.

Take an out student loan? One is on the hook until the loan is paid or severely disabled/dead.

Take out a PPP loan? Ah Hell, just keep it. No worries.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#87

Post by sgerenser »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #79
dredmorbius wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balloon mortgages and an inability to refinance on attractive terms. It wasn't a matter of holding the property. Most simply couldn't make payments. Walkaways worked because real estate debt (in most of the US) is non-recourse debt. You leave the mortgage, the bank (or present mortgage holder) gets the property. Debt is settled. (Lender in this case, or the present mortage holder, itself a rather complex question giv…

> Balloon mortgages I remember seeing those. As far as I was concerned, I thought they were an absolute scam and I can't believe anybody chose one. > It wasn't a matter of holding the property. Most simply couldn't make payments. I know that was the case for most people, but I certainly heard about people that still could, but chose not to, simply because they were underwater. I was trying to understand those people.…

Look up the difference between “recourse” and “non-recourse” states. In a non-recourse state, the mortgage lender gets the house in a foreclosure, and there is no other recourse available (like suing for the remaining debt). Only 12 states are non-recourse, but some of the big players in the 2008 financial crash are among them (California, Arizona, Texas).

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#88

Post by ryandrake »

silisili wrote: post #38
sandspar wrote: post #19

I've seen a few sides of money. Raised upper class, lost it all and became underclass, then made it back. I'm always amazed at how limited rich people's worldview is. The average software developer, coastal liberal etc. They've never felt terror, the visceral feeling of being terrified. They've never been predated upon. They've never been used and discarded. The underclass lives with this stuff every day, 24/7, and r…

I was just discussing this with a friend last week. In my case at least, it was too easy to forget. I grew up low end of middle class at best, and after high school was dirt poor. Getting overdrafts weekly, in that era where they reorder transactions to really turn the screws. Sleeping early because it's cheaper than eating. Working two jobs and still not getting ahead. The shame of having to ask to borrow a few buck…

Unfortunately the Cruelty Industry is huge and there is a lot of money to be made putting the screws to the most financially vulnerable people.

Banks, the lending industry (including credit card companies, mortgage and student loans), debt collectors, repo men, payday loan stores and check cashers, not to mention the entire legal system, ugh... To me it's sick that they can upend someone's life just because they didn't pay a bunch of bills. Society collectively has the wealth to treat the less fortunate with grace and dignity, with compassion and forgiveness, but it's more profitable to find fault, then squeeze everything out of them and leave them by the side of the road.

A lot of people fold their arms and smugly say "Well, they made bad choices and deserve it all." Whatever lets you sleep at night, I guess.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#89

Post by fragmede »

orangecat wrote: post #85
rufus_foreman wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> In any case, it's a big stretch to call eviction "state violence" No, it's not, that's exactly what it is. A guy with a gun and a badge coming to your residence to enforce a contract is "state violence". To me that's a legitimate use of state violence, but let's call it what it is. No, not everyone gets to enforce their contracts with violence, that's called "The state monopoly on violence".

A guy with a gun and a badge coming to your residence "your" is questionable in that scenario.

the place where you live is your residence, no matter what a piece of paper says. Even if it's a tent on the sidewalk.

Re: My job is to watch dreams die (2011)

#90

Post by TheAlchemist »

sandspar wrote: post #19

I've seen a few sides of money. Raised upper class, lost it all and became underclass, then made it back. I'm always amazed at how limited rich people's worldview is. The average software developer, coastal liberal etc. They've never felt terror, the visceral feeling of being terrified. They've never been predated upon. They've never been used and discarded. The underclass lives with this stuff every day, 24/7, and r…

Similar feelings here - started rather pretty low, a bit of family problems, all that. While I make very decent money, that is considered upper class, my net worth is still way lower than somebody with average job, but who had richer parents who helped them buy a house quickly, or pay for studies, etc.

For me, the biggest difference money make, is the freedom to choose better options. When you don't have money, or family backup, you quite often choose poorly not because you're dumb, but the choices you can really make are very limited. You end up taking a job that's good but not that great. You are renting, and even if the job is not good, you know there would be a huge risk to try to change the job, as you could end up unable to rent something new if you don't have a stable proven job...

These are things a lot of people never ever experienced in their life. It's not their fault of course, ideally nobody should. But yeah, you just don't judge people for poor choices that much, if you've ever been in a position where those poor choices are actually often the only real choices you have.

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