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Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

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Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#81
post #74

In the end, if that annoys Russia, that's a good thing. Telegram is used by Russia, terror groups, and so on. It's always funny to hear people talk about free speech in that situation.

>Telegram is used by Russia, terror groups, and so on.

As well as a lot of people in CIS countries (including Ukraine), people fed up with Meta and probably 95% of Android custom ROM communities (wild guess, do not quote me on that).

Not to mention platforms like, for example, Discord. Also used in Russia. Also probably used by terror groups. But it's okay because we are supposed to like "our" platform.

>It's always funny to hear people talk about free speech in that situation.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#82
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One person's 'disinfo' is another's info, that same person's info is propaganda to another Yeah the only difference is that one person is right and the other person is wrong. > The recent acknowledgement by Zuckerberg that the Biden/Harris regime pressured them into censoring information should give you some thought about what is 'disinfo'. Of course they fucking did, and so they should have. Also, you think the cu…

> Yeah the only difference is that one person is right and the other person is wrong. Says everyone. While there are clear examples where this is the case - e.g. SARS2 vaccines do not protect against infection nor do they protect against infecting others - there are many other situations where 'right' and 'wrong' are not so clearly defined. When someone claims a certain party or presidential candidate is a 'threat to…

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Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#83
post #40
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One person's 'disinfo' is another's info, that same person's info is propaganda to another Yeah the only difference is that one person is right and the other person is wrong. > The recent acknowledgement by Zuckerberg that the Biden/Harris regime pressured them into censoring information should give you some thought about what is 'disinfo'. Of course they fucking did, and so they should have. Also, you think the cu…

>why do you think there's no anti-anaesthetics movement? for one, I've never been required to get anesthesia as a condition of employment. lumping all vaccines together is not productive and we don't do that when discussing painkillers. there is a movement against OxyContin but not a movement against Ibuprofen.

> for one, I've never been required to get anesthesia as a condition of employment

You've been required to get anaesthesia as a condition of getting dental work done, or any number of routine day procedures, or more serious operations. Maybe you've never had to have anaesthetic at all, but you certainly will at some point in your life.

> lumping all vaccines together is not productive and we don't do that when discussing painkillers. there is a movement against OxyContin but not a movement against Ibuprofen

There is no "movement against oxycontin". There are a slew of well documented and successful legal cases against Purdue for its misleading advertising of Oxy in the US, but there's not like, a groundswell of conspiracy theories about it. In fact, the way that the Oxy case has played out is a good example of what real conspiracy looks like, and how it shows up in the legal system.

Sure there are accidental overdoses in other countries, and people everywhere every day are either hospitalised or die from accidental or intentional overdoses of opioids, but not to the same scale. The way that it's played out in the US worse than anywhere else and is as much to do with the dysfunctional nature of the healthcare system that allowed Purdue to behave the way it did, as it is to do with the drugs themselves.

Compared to that, the covid vaccine story (and story about vaccines generally) is a case in point about what a manufactured conspiracy theory looks like and how it shows up in the legal system (ie. a series of politically motivated lawsuits that fall along party lines).

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#84
post #80
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Platforms like Signal can get away with this because they are properly E2E encrypted, and cannot identify illegal content. Signal isn't magically protected by proper E2E encryption. When the time comes to take them down legally, all that's needed is evidence from end users phones demonstrating illegal activities occurring over Signal. But - for now - Signal seems to have better friends and or be upsetting less auth…

>To me it's pretty clear reason why they've gone after Telegram is the Channels and Groups. Seen from a certain perspective Telegram channels are an alternative to Reddit, and have been popular medium during COVID and the Ukraine war for "alternative news". By now Reddit is properly controlled and subdued but Telegram isn't. This is full on speculation. Right now the reality is you can buy underage people, drugs and…

Telegram regularly bans channels that promote hate-speech or do illegal activities.

The only issue is, their team is way too small for moderation, which is why so many weird communities keep popping up.

I’ve been on Telegram for 5 years and I’ve yet to see anything of what you mentioned in your comment.

It’s a fear mongering tactic against a perfectly good and arguably the best messenger application in existence right now.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there CP/violent content in Instagram? Nope. In Facebook? Nope. In YouTube? nope. Yes. Infact you can find public groups, pages and channels posting all kind of illegal stuff (drugs, weapons, fraud, dox..)

Really, report them they have to take them down, if they do not take CP down then make a hacker News thread , you for sure will be on the top of the page.

Telegram regularly takes down such channels too but their mistake? They underestimated the moderation team size and move at a slower pace than other trillion dollar corpos.

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#86
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telegram doesn't seem to compete for engineering talent on labour market, Telegram employees don't go to conferences, are never seen on mailing lists of open source projects, etc. Isn't the whole narrative that Durov, who is essentially extremely rich as a result of building VK, bankrolled the whole creation? For all of the criticism, Telegram remains one of the most highly polished and well-designed apps I've ever…

> Maybe they don't need to compete on talent simply because they're paid well by Durov? Or because they're staffed by the Kremlin!

Any source on that?

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#87
post #8
post #2

https://archive.is/wDlpb I found it a little low on detail, though.

From the horse's mouth, in French and English, the official press statement from the Prosecutor's office (it's a PDF): https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files... It's a laundry list of accessory to commit crimes + a few interesting associated ones like organising to commit crimes, and laundering the proceeds of crimes.

Thanks. So they're fairly confident about most of it, them.

I wonder about this: «Fourniture d'un moyen de cryptologie n'assurant pas exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sans déclaration préalable,» Do you happen to know what making that declaration involves?

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#88
post #87
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the horse's mouth, in French and English, the official press statement from the Prosecutor's office (it's a PDF): https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files... It's a laundry list of accessory to commit crimes + a few interesting associated ones like organising to commit crimes, and laundering the proceeds of crimes.

Thanks. So they're fairly confident about most of it, them. I wonder about this: «Fourniture d'un moyen de cryptologie n'assurant pas exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sans déclaration préalable,» Do you happen to know what making that declaration involves?

Disclaimer: not a lawyer, just did some law courses in a couple of countries, including France.

From the law 2004-575 [1], section 1, article 30:

> I. - L'utilisation des moyens de cryptologie est libre.

> II. - La fourniture, le transfert depuis ou vers un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne, l'importation et l'exportation des moyens de cryptologie assurant exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sont libres.

> III. - La fourniture, le transfert depuis un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne ou l'importation d'un moyen de cryptologie n'assurant pas exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sont soumis à une déclaration préalable auprès du Premier ministre, sauf dans les cas prévus au b du présent III. Le fournisseur ou la personne procédant au transfert ou à l'importation tiennent à la disposition du Premier ministre une description des caractéristiques techniques de ce moyen de cryptologie, ainsi que le code source des logiciels utilisés. Un décret en Conseil d'Etat fixe :

> a) Les conditions dans lesquelles sont souscrites ces déclarations, les conditions et les délais dans lesquels le Premier ministre peut demander communication des caractéristiques du moyen, ainsi que la nature de ces caractéristiques ;

> b) Les catégories de moyens dont les caractéristiques techniques ou les conditions d'utilisation sont telles que, au regard des intérêts de la défense nationale et de la sécurité intérieure ou extérieure de l'Etat, leur fourniture, leur transfert depuis un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne ou leur importation peuvent être dispensés de toute formalité préalable.

> IV. - Le transfert vers un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne et l'exportation d'un moyen de cryptologie n'assurant pas exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sont soumis à autorisation du Premier ministre, sauf dans les cas prévus au b du présent IV. Un décret en Conseil d'Etat fixe :

> a) Les conditions dans lesquelles sont souscrites les demandes d'autorisation ainsi que les délais dans lesquels le Premier ministre statue sur ces demandes ;

> b) Les catégories de moyens dont les caractéristiques techniques ou les conditions d'utilisation sont telles que, au regard des intérêts de la défense nationale et de la sécurité intérieure ou extérieure de l'Etat, leur transfert vers un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne ou leur exportation peuvent être soit soumis au régime déclaratif et aux obligations d'information prévus au III, soit dispensés de toute formalité préalable.

Basically, any cryptography exported/imported that is not about authentication or integrity control, or a set of other exceptions, needs to be approved from the Prime Minister's office.

The exceptions and formalities are defined in the relevant decree [2] and it's annex defining the full list of exceptions [3] (Ctrl/Cmd+F "ANNEXE 1"). The procedure to ask for authorisation is to send a special type of letter a month before going into production, and if you don't hear back within a month (the directorate has a month to ask for more information), all is good. They can request the source code, and forbid use if they decide it's against the nations interests. The list of exceptions is quite exhaustive, e.g. it includes cryptography aboard single board computers for personal use, banking, TV encryption, etc.

Interestingly, there's this part:

> Equipements spécialement conçus et limités pour assurer la protection de logiciels ou de données informatiques contre la copie ou l’utilisation illicite et dont la capacité cryptographique n’est pas accessible à l’utilisateur.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, if Telegram was end to end encrypted, they wouldn't have had to declare to the PM.

How the declaration

1 - https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/section_lc/JORFTEXT0000...

2 - https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000000646995

3 - https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/download/pdf?id=y0_q3mVjGocOR...

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#89
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does missing human rights activists have to do with telegram? What are your sources on "utterly compromised security on telegram"?

> What are your sources on "utterly compromised security on telegram"? Have you looked at the "encrypted" protocol? Wonderfully complex, and the key authority is telegram, with little to no way to spot bait and switch. But thats the "secret" messaging. Everything else is plain text and stored centrally. its basically facebook/slack with better cyrillic support.

These are all false claims. Messages are not stored in plaintext. Secret Chats are E2EE and use standard crypto primitives. All of this is well-documented. [1] [2]

[1] https://core.telegram.org/mtproto/AJiEAwIYFoAsBGJBjZwYoQIwFM...

[2] https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end

Re: Telegram founder charged with wide range of crimes in France

#90
post #88
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. So they're fairly confident about most of it, them. I wonder about this: «Fourniture d'un moyen de cryptologie n'assurant pas exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sans déclaration préalable,» Do you happen to know what making that declaration involves?

Disclaimer: not a lawyer, just did some law courses in a couple of countries, including France. From the law 2004-575 [1], section 1, article 30: > I. - L'utilisation des moyens de cryptologie est libre. > II. - La fourniture, le transfert depuis ou vers un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne, l'importation et l'exportation des moyens de cryptologie assurant exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de co…

Thanks, that's very useful.

I wonder whether that final exception is intended to cover the kind of end-to-end encryption Signal does, or rather the kind of end-to-end encryption the Netflix app does. Digital rights management. It's not clear to me that those can be separated — doesn't Jitsi use the same in-browser code as Vimeo? But it's also not clear to me what "not accessible to the user" means, exactly.

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