Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would be interesting, maybe name it after a color... Can't find the name of that now. But there's also RedoxOS and probably several more.
He's talking about Android, not Fuchsia.
Indeed.
Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
81–90 of 127 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is never good news that "nontechnical nonsense" causes a major maintainer to step down, regardless of Rust or not-Rust.
What was heard in the video was both technical and sensible.
Did we see the same video ?
The rust guys were just asking for semantic information about the current C apis so they could try to encode them into the type system.
All they got in response to that were made up problems of them supposedly forcing everyone to adopt their religion, rust being too OOP or other nitpicks that had nothing to do with the issue the presenters were trying to talk about.
Nobody even answered their questions, people which obviously didn't even look at rust for more than an hour gave their opinion on why what they're doing is bad and destined to fail. It was rude, tone-deaf and not a single technically sound argument was actually made.
I love linux and I'm fine with the maintainers deciding to use C if they want to, but the behavior by the old guard here was actually appalling and reeks of deep insecurity and inability to communicate.
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because internally the kernel maintains API compatibility, so if some internal C API changes the change needs to update rest of C code consuming it If kernel includes Rust, then that C code change could also require applying fixes to Rust code that breaks from that change
That burden would fall on Rust maintainers. If the Rust code goes unmaintained and nobody is around to pick it up, it just gets dropped from Linux releases that rely on the up-to-date C API.
The Rust maintainers said they would maintain the Rust bindings. But wouldn't it be nice to have a heads up that the bindings might break? Or whether assumptions have changed? Or even what the assumptions are?
It's a little tough to build a safe abstraction layer on top of C or encourage maintainers to stick around with a hostile "that's a _you_ problem" mentality or inaccurate rhetoric that Rust are trying to force their religion onto the C devs.
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
They literally said "spreading your religion" at the very start of their critique. I think I'm correctly reading the tone of the rest of the comment even if I didn't verbatim quote them. From the closed captions with minor editing. In response to "we are going to provide API bindings" > I suspect the problem here is you are trying to convert everyone to the religion as promulgated by rust and the reality is that ain'…
> They literally said "spreading your religion" at the very start of their critique. If you'll re-read the quote you claim to be literally quoting, nowhere does it say "spreading your religion": > > I suspect the problem here is you are trying to convert everyone to the religion as promulgated by rust...
No, it says convert everyone to whatever religion is “promulgated by Rust”... which is a stronger accusation (spreading vs. converting everyone).
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Kneejerk pushback from old timers C-only kernel devs.
Thanks for sharing. This makes a lot of sense to me. I’m not close to kernel development but any change to an established entity impacts the interest of people in it. So a primary obstacle change encounters is that it may diminish power people obtained in the establishment. These people, while well intentioned in pushback, have difficulty separating benefit to the entity and benefit to themselves. So it takes a lot o…
Asahi Linux’s (Distro targeting Macs) developer also recounts a similar experience. https://vt.social/@lina/113045455229442533
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not users? Linux development is it's own reward?
Users should only need to care about what happens in user space. And the most important promise of Linux is "don't break user space". The kernel's programming language is literally just an internal implementation detail, irrelevant for Linux users.
Ah, I see the distinction. Thanks!
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean notable projects, I do not consider toy projects in this. Just because someone pushed some Rust into a kernel it does not make that kernel a Rust kernel, this is the issue with Rust community , hyping the fact that some devs managed to pushed a few lines of Rust in some kernel as some big victory. Even Mozilla gave up on making a browser in 100% Rust, it seems that rewriting in Rust is not that easy and people…
I'm not talking about toy projects. I'm talking about real, used in production kernels. One of those embedded ones is used by my employer, for example. > people like to talk then do the work. There are tens of millions (I'm being conservative here, not sure I'd claim 100M) of Rust code running in production, at many very large tech companies. I feel like you have an opinion and are trying to fit the facts to it, rath…
So why are you naming that non toy kernel your company uses in many devices in production?
I did not say that there are not tons of millions of Rust lines of code used in production, I wish there would be a modern kernel for PCs not some micro/nano kernel for some board. I see it a big waste to push Rust into Linux or Windows kernels instead of those competent developers writing that new modern kernel, it feels like they are forced to work on Linux/Windows so they want to have fun with Rust at work. If Rust is so superior then you just need to start the kernel, prove is super fast and super safe and Big Tech will put the money so they can use it on their servers, Like why would Netflix not use the super kernel written in Rust ?
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#88Rust Switching to a more modern topic, the introduction of the Rust language into Linux, Torvalds is disappointed that its adoption isn't going faster. "I was expecting updates to be faster, but part of the problem is that old-time kernel developers are used to C and don't know Rust. They're not exactly excited about having to learn a new language that is, in some respects, very different. So there's been some pushba…
IMHO, as a C developer, I love Rust's features but the syntax is terrible.
Another developer here who writes in C and C++, same. I think a lot of people have this complaint. I'm sad about it because what Rust provides in principle sounds great. The language is hideous though, and I really don't want to write anything in it.
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not talking about toy projects. I'm talking about real, used in production kernels. One of those embedded ones is used by my employer, for example. > people like to talk then do the work. There are tens of millions (I'm being conservative here, not sure I'd claim 100M) of Rust code running in production, at many very large tech companies. I feel like you have an opinion and are trying to fit the facts to it, rath…
So why are you naming that non toy kernel your company uses in many devices in production? I did not say that there are not tons of millions of Rust lines of code used in production, I wish there would be a modern kernel for PCs not some micro/nano kernel for some board. I see it a big waste to push Rust into Linux or Windows kernels instead of those competent developers writing that new modern kernel, it feels like…
Ours is https://hubris.oxide.computer/, used for various parts of our product, namely the root of trust and service processor.
Other examples: https://tockos.org/ & https://oxidos.io/
"just" writing a production-grade Linux equivalent would take decades. Some people are working on such projects, but those will take a long time, if ever, to mature, whereas improving Linux means making positive change today. Both things can be pursued in parallel, by different people. It's not an either/or.
Re: Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
IMHO, as a C developer, I love Rust's features but the syntax is terrible.
Another developer here who writes in C and C++, same. I think a lot of people have this complaint. I'm sad about it because what Rust provides in principle sounds great. The language is hideous though, and I really don't want to write anything in it.
What things are hideous about it and what would you rather it look like?