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Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

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Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#81

Post by bitsage »

coliveira wrote: post #66
jolux wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would be timely if Western politicians showed same concern for national manufacturing capabilities instead of continuously relying on outsourcing. You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act

The CHIPS act is a big mistake, they decided to give billions of dollars to companies like Intel that decided to layoff thousands of people a few months later. Like always, the US decided to give more money to unaccountable companies that will put this money into their management and shareholder's pockets.

It’s remarkable that China even manages to do subsidies better than us. Blanket incentives to an industry would be far better than the regulatory capture we get here… Same story for EVs.

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#82

Post by rramadass »

Animats wrote: post #17
cherryteastain wrote: post #7

Canon and Nikon are also working on alternatives such as nanoimprint lithography [1]. Chinese universities and companies are working on particle accelerator based EUV sources [2]. Question is, will they be able to actually commercialize it before ASML manages to get improved versions of their current litho machines out the door? Commercialization of a technology like this can easily take 5-10 years, and ASML aren't t…

It's interesting that the author's picture is with a linear accelerator. It's quite possible to use a linear accelerator to generate EUV to etch chips. It's been done as a test at SLAC.[1] But that approach was more expensive than AMSL's, since it needed a mile-long accelerator. There was a startup in Fremont, Lyncean Technologies, that had a 10 watt EUV source based on a small synchrotron.[2][3] They supposedly got…

> the laser tin-zapping thing ASML uses.

The Science/Engineering to make this work is nothing short of magic! There are actually two lasers; the first one to reshape the spherical tin droplet to concave shape and the second one to vaporize it to plasma generating EUV range light.

The Extreme Engineering of ASML’s EUV Light Source by Asianometry - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ge2RcvDlgw

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#83

Post by coliveira »

pas wrote: post #79
coliveira wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CHIPS act is a big mistake, they decided to give billions of dollars to companies like Intel that decided to layoff thousands of people a few months later. Like always, the US decided to give more money to unaccountable companies that will put this money into their management and shareholder's pockets.

the money was not pro bono, right? Intel has to perform something otherwise they need to pay it back, no?

No, like all schemes created by the US, companies will only accept the money if they know they won't have to repay it back. They just need to show "intention" of investing that money; for example, trying to start a new factory, even if knowing that it will never be operational.

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#84

Post by coliveira »

ineedaj0b wrote: post #78
coliveira wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's laughable, China will spend 15-30 expanding on all kinds of technologies while cut from the US by design. I cannot see any long term benefit for the US when it lost access to the largest foreign market and suffers from fierce competition across the world. See the debacle of EV, where Chinese companies are already dominating sales on 3rd world countries and inside China.

if China invades Taiwan (Xi explicitly says he plans too) I don't think anyone will want to buy from China. the US chip sanctions are viewed happily by the entire industry - except China. This means other countries have a chance to further displace China in the sector. Not agreeing with a certain sanction is fine but my point stands: they are meant to hobble countries long term.

The only country that is hobbled by these sanctions is the US. China will not invade Taiwan because they don't need it, and even if they do nobody will stop buying from them for this reason, since Taiwan is considered to be part of the China by most of the world (even formally by the US). It is funny that the US continues to deceive itself on this issue.

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#85

Post by phonon »

This has already been debunked.

"As it turns out, however, EUV monopolist ASML and its optics suppliers Zeiss have already considered similar setups. “Zeiss has several designs available with similar/better performance than the Shintake design,” an ASML spokesperson told Bits&Chips. So far, these haven’t generated chipmakers’ interest due to the reduced resolution and smaller field size of the design. Should this change in the future, “we will explore whether one of Zeiss’ systems makes sense.”"

https://bits-chips.nl/article/despite-superior-efficiency-ja...

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#86

Post by ahartmetz »

silisili wrote: post #77
kredd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m actually excited to see these projects come into fruition. If USA can pull it off, and become competitive in global markets, it’ll a proof that we can still build big projects when we want to. If things go sideways with nothing coming online by the end of 2020s, it won’t look good especially knowing how China just keeps outbuilding us.

Same. I'm pretty confident we can, though. Not to take too much away from ASML who has done a good job in the time since, but don't forget that the US invented EUV with taxpayer money and basically only allowed ASML(and a company they bought) access. And the rest, as they say, is history.

EUV the concept is obvious. You want higher resolution, you need shorter wavelengths. But there are many devils in many details, and the relatively tiny US EUV program didn't do a whole lot about them. So no, EUV is not mainly a US development.

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#87

Post by tester756 »

coliveira wrote: post #83
pas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the money was not pro bono, right? Intel has to perform something otherwise they need to pay it back, no?

No, like all schemes created by the US, companies will only accept the money if they know they won't have to repay it back. They just need to show "intention" of investing that money; for example, trying to start a new factory, even if knowing that it will never be operational.

So, which fab in your opinion will never be operational? Ohio?

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#88

Post by Nevermark »

coliveira wrote: post #84
ineedaj0b wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if China invades Taiwan (Xi explicitly says he plans too) I don't think anyone will want to buy from China. the US chip sanctions are viewed happily by the entire industry - except China. This means other countries have a chance to further displace China in the sector. Not agreeing with a certain sanction is fine but my point stands: they are meant to hobble countries long term.

The only country that is hobbled by these sanctions is the US. China will not invade Taiwan because they don't need it, and even if they do nobody will stop buying from them for this reason, since Taiwan is considered to be part of the China by most of the world (even formally by the US). It is funny that the US continues to deceive itself on this issue.

US access to Taiwanese chip makers isn’t hobbled.

Taiwan doesn’t consider itself part of China.

So the US view is in line with the practical facts on the ground.

And China wouldn’t need to saber rattle if they had credible “alternate” facts or didn’t feel they were the ones “hobbled”.

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#89

Post by osnium123 »

coliveira wrote: post #66
jolux wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would be timely if Western politicians showed same concern for national manufacturing capabilities instead of continuously relying on outsourcing. You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act

The CHIPS act is a big mistake, they decided to give billions of dollars to companies like Intel that decided to layoff thousands of people a few months later. Like always, the US decided to give more money to unaccountable companies that will put this money into their management and shareholder's pockets.

The money has not gotten paid out yet. Do you think they should cancel Intel’s grants and give the money to proven foundries like Samsung and TSMC?

Re: Japan on edge of EUV lithography chip-making revolution

#90

Post by coliveira »

talldayo wrote: post #75
sangnoir wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cut off from international designs, it's not really clear how strong China's engineering chops are. CATL, DJI, Douyin & post-grad engineering programs all over the US suggest the answer is "very strong." Underestimating China is not good for anyone wishing to remain competitive

I don't underestimate China, but I also don't take them at their word. They have a vested interest in appearing competitive even if they're not, same as the US does. I've acknowledged that both are nearly equals in terms of being importer-states reliant on foreign trade for competitive silicon. To my knowledge, China's most advanced domestic lithography is a dubious 7nm chip with unknown yields made entirely with DUV…

You don't need to take their word, just look at the products they're releasing, especially in the EV segment. It is now above everybody else, even with the head start western companies had. They're at the top of telecom tech as well, and Huawei had to be cancelled in the West to stop its total dominance. Even in chips, where they have closed the gap in many ways in a matter of a few years.
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