Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

greenwichtime.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 242 posts

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#81

Post by card_zero »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76
card_zero wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps consider "attack" as broadly defined or metaphorical, similar to "cell phone == crack pipe", which of course isn't nonsense either, or is it.

> consider "attack" as broadly defined Still doesn’t work. There are over 3x more motor vehicles in America than dogs [1][2]. There are more households with cars than dogs. Our interaction frequency with vehicles is much greater. The threshold for damage, given a vehicle’s power, is much less. For any measure of “attack,” the frequency and damage from cars will always exceed that from dogs. It’s a stupid aside that d…

> Our interaction frequency with vehicles is much greater.

Well I still wouldn't like to call it, because a dog will in many cases, perhaps the majority, escape the owner's control and run up to you and sniff you, which is very unusual for cars.

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#82

Post by haswell »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #34
haswell wrote: post #21

I forget who originally suggested this so I can’t take credit. But what if device manufacturers worked with schools to implement some kind of “School Mode” on these devices? Students could retain their access in exchange for schools setting policies on what’s allowed, e.g. you can keep wearing your watch, but it’s effectively in collection-only mode during the school day. Nothing intrusive to the students; more like…

> what if device manufacturers worked with schools to implement some kind of “School Mode” on these devices? How would you enforce this? > as our devices become increasingly wearable and integrated with daily life, it seems like a ban is only a temporarily viable solution I’m a strong proponent of these technologies. But the truth is we mandate, and as a result do, zero testing on how it affects kids before deploying…

Enforcement is definitely one of the sticking points, but seems solvable.

The simplest option would be a geofence on school grounds, but I realize this comes with issues and kids will figure out how to bypass it.

Another approach is to have some kind of scan-in/scan-out system where you’re allowed to maintain physical access by scanning some device upon entering the school which has been programmed to safely enable the mode without requiring intrusive access to the device itself. It’d unlock upon scanning out for the day or by a parent. This would require deep integration by Apple/Google/etc. similar to Apple’s work on digital driver’s licenses.

I describe a beacon-based approach in a sibling reply.

I think a feature set like this would need to be fairly dumb in that it should not require positive identification of individuals and should instead be focused on a fairly simple binary “you scanned into a limited area” type of decision.

I don’t know how I feel about these options or even the whole approach, but I’m bringing them up mostly as a way to explore the concept.

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#83

Post by zamadatix »

troyvit wrote: post #50

My daughter's school gives all the kids ipads and she got a new one this year. The IT guy gave it to her before locking it down so she installed all the dumb apps she wanted on it before handing it back over. The point, aside from how proud I am of my daughter, is that kids are going to find a way to get what they want. This is an arms race. It'll be interesting to watch.

I think that's two separate battles which are part of the same topic.

Battle #1 is combining the complexity and abundance of electronic devices with the time, dedication, and cleverness of kids requires (literally) writing a bug free operating system & application ecosystem as well as nearly every school employee having a completely accurate understanding of how to manage them. The goal here is never to get to 100% compliance but to add friction to noncompliance so it's easier for workers to do their job and get through the day.

Battle #2 (the part these kinds of bans focus on) is on setting expectations for when electronic devices are allowed at all. Whether or not students always comply isn't even the goal of this battle, it's all about making the problem clear and swift to deal with: "I saw your phone during school hours so you're caught and it's confiscated" isn't about preventing kids from being sneaky, it's about making the enforcement easy.

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#84

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Jolter wrote: post #57
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24

There is a striking divide between how the rich and FAANG employed treat technology around their kids versus everyone else. The single most potent difference I’ve seen as a result is their kids’ ability to maintain eye contact during conversation.

Joke’s on you, I’ve never been able to maintain eye contact with anyone and I grew up long before smartphones were a thing.

> I’ve never been able to maintain eye contact with anyone and I grew up long before smartphones were a thing

Sorry. I was using eye contact as an indicator of involvement, focus and a general ability to engage in conversation. I didn’t mean to suggest it’s bad per se.

I have colleagues on the spectrum. They don’t tend to maintain eye contact when they speak. But their conversation is deeply engaging. The cell phone kids, on the other hand, have a specific vacant gaze that, once you see it, almost gives an “is anybody home” vibe. Their sentences are short and abrupt, diction well below where it should be at their age. (And these aren’t stupid kids. They’re just bad at interacting off screen.)

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#85

Post by trte9343r4 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76
card_zero wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps consider "attack" as broadly defined or metaphorical, similar to "cell phone == crack pipe", which of course isn't nonsense either, or is it.

> consider "attack" as broadly defined Still doesn’t work. There are over 3x more motor vehicles in America than dogs [1][2]. There are more households with cars than dogs. Our interaction frequency with vehicles is much greater. The threshold for damage, given a vehicle’s power, is much less. For any measure of “attack,” the frequency and damage from cars will always exceed that from dogs. It’s a stupid aside that d…

Not every attack results in damage. And not every bite is an attack.

Maybe have a look at this (cyclist chased by dogs). None of this stuff gets reported. This guy has hours and hours of similar attacks. It is pretty common.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cpgXW5OpAUQ

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#86

Post by haswell »

miki123211 wrote: post #54
haswell wrote: post #21

I forget who originally suggested this so I can’t take credit. But what if device manufacturers worked with schools to implement some kind of “School Mode” on these devices? Students could retain their access in exchange for schools setting policies on what’s allowed, e.g. you can keep wearing your watch, but it’s effectively in collection-only mode during the school day. Nothing intrusive to the students; more like…

How would you enforce this without invasive surveillance? How could a teacher check that school mode is on without gaining control of the device? How could they ensure that the mode isn't turned off when they aren't looking?

This would require deep OS-level features from Apple/Google/etc. See my reply to a sibling comment for spitballing ideas, but I don’t think it’s necessary for this to be invasive.

Another approach would be beacon-based, where the devices would operate with limited capability if in range of an actively broadcasting cryptographically secure “At School” beacon.

I think there are plenty of ways to do this without surveillance or any specific knowledge about individuals using the phones, but it would require collaboration between schools and device manufacturers, and would understandably raise questions about whether disabling devices in this way is a slippery slope to other things.

Although I wouldn’t be too mad if this was generalized to concerts and movie theaters. Finding the balance between policy enforcement and safety would be the top issue.

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#87

Post by trte9343r4 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #66
trte9343r4 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> why my kid needs recorder, many abusers try to down play such attacks! Have you ever had anyone in a position of authority do anything about a dog sniffing or licking your kid? Because if so, that’s national-news level hilarious.

Yes. There are existing leash laws. But it takes a lot of effort to get then enforced. And you need recording for proof!

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#88

Post by zamadatix »

Jolter wrote: post #58
WalterBright wrote: post #40

[flagged]

And then teachers would not be able to call 911 if there is an emergency in class. Next suggestion, please, this one was no good.

Not that I like the idea but teachers typically also had/have phones at their desk (for the last couple decades at least) it's just easier for the teacher to have the central office deal with contacting the parents and getting the kid with a fever picked up or whatever. Similarly, it's easier for the parents to call the central number and be immediately responded to and directed accordingly than try to find the specific teacher's number and hope it's a good time for them to pick up directly. For 911 level emergencies in class the teacher would call direct as the lesson plan and class conduct is a bit less important than the kid who can't breathe.

The other problems with this solution is there is no way to just jam cell phone signals inside the school only, the signals that need to be jammed are different each place and change over time, and it's unpopular with both anyone that had a legitimate use case for cell service as well as the FCC doesn't like doing it. It's also a generally complicated solution, even if you only attempt to get "some" of it to work right.

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#89

Post by zamadatix »

WalterBright wrote: post #46
noah32 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think the fcc might have something to say about that

Fix the fcc.

The FCC is already on a pretty optimal answer in this case, it's physics you'd want to fix. Completely jamming all cell signals disrupts the public and private airspace well beyond the school.

Re: Greenwich schools to ban most cellphones, Apple Watches, Fitbits and more

#90

Post by rpcope1 »

troyvit wrote: post #50

My daughter's school gives all the kids ipads and she got a new one this year. The IT guy gave it to her before locking it down so she installed all the dumb apps she wanted on it before handing it back over. The point, aside from how proud I am of my daughter, is that kids are going to find a way to get what they want. This is an arms race. It'll be interesting to watch.

I've never heard a good, convincing explanation as to why on earth children need iPads for any reason. Are the schools just not doing their jobs, and letting the iPads "teach" the children rather than a person doing it?
Post reply on HN