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Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

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Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#81

Post by ianburrell »

derbOac wrote: post #49
croes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A lot of this is perception vs. reality,” he said. “If you were to talk to many very accomplished coaches, they would say the pool has to be a minimum 3 meters deep. Most of our research shows that anything over 2 meters is frivolous. … Obviously, some depth is very important. But after a certain point, it's diminishing return. Maybe it's just the swimmers and not the pool as such

At the end of the article it notes thqt quote is coming from the company who built the pool. On some swimming forums competitors were complaining about the bidding process for the pool construction and giving a different opinion, noting that the depth is less than what was recommended by international standards bodies. There's also something about video equipment at the bottom of the pool? I'm not sure what to think,…

The Olympic swimming is held in temporary pools in an indoor arena. Temporary pools explain the shallow depth and high walls. It isn't construction problem but decision to not use permanent pool.

Temporary pools seem to be thing recently. The US trials were held in one.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#83

Post by AtlasBarfed »

croes wrote: post #80
lou1306 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a lot of the swimmers themselves are not able to go anywhere near their personal bests: this is a sharp reversal from past Olympics, where many athletes reached new personal records. Plus, they are the worldwide foremost experts on competitive swimming. Definitely I would be more interested in their evaluation of a swimming pool rather than trust "research results" from the company that built the pool in question…

Maybe they all change their behavior because they know the pool is less deep as they are used to. Some kind of placebo effect or fear of coming to close to the ground. Many athletes are superstitious.

There's Olympic gold medals on the line.

People are going absolutely as hard as they can.

There's no way an Olympic pool for the actual Olympics should be that shallow. If athletes prefer a deep pool, the pool should be deep.

Swimming is one of the premier sports at Olympics. It's also a facility that has one of the most reuse if built properly.

You don't think a Paris aquatic center wouldn't get tons of reuse in world championships and other types of top end level events if they'd built a fast pool

It's a mystifying decision. Especially since one of the standout athletes on the French Olympic team is a swimmer, and it appears that their decision now cheap out on the pool cost him a world record on the Olympic stage on his home soil

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#84

Post by Kon-Peki »

defrost wrote: post #36
echoangle wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being good at swimming doesn’t mean you can evaluate the pool performance better than everyone else. I trust someone running a CFD analysis of a pool more than a competitive Olympic swimmer when it comes to the effect of pool depth. It’s very hard to make accurate statistical assessments from intuition. Edit: maybe I’m not making myself clear: I don’t doubt they are slower in the current pool than they were before. B…

Competitive Olympic swimmers in G20 countries aren't always rocket scientists and brain surgeons ... BUT .. thay are frequently coached by teams that include leading sports scientists with degrees in fluid dynamics | applied mathematics | etc. Australia, as one example, took swimming (and a few other sports) next level with a plethora of studies on all things performance related. Any theorectical results from, say, C…

The powerhouse swimming nations (USA, China, Australia, Canada, UK, etc) are so far ahead of everyone else it isn't even close anymore.

My niece was not fast enough to be invited to the trials this year (missed by .03 seconds in her favorite event), but her time would have put her into the second heat in Paris. She's the ~150th fastest person in the USA, but would have come in ~25th place in the Olympics. It's the same situation in China, Australia, Canada, UK, etc.

Most countries only have a small handful of elite swimmers. The power nations can each provide 20-50 swimmers fast enough to get to the semi-finals in every single event. They're analyzing and optimizing for everything. This is why most of the elite swimmers not from these countries go and train in the powerhouse countries. And why the powerhouse countries don't care that they do. I'd bet that 90% of all the medal winners this year do their training in 5 countries.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#85

Post by etempleton »

mysterydip wrote: post #11
samldev wrote: post #5

I was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things: 1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool. 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop. A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggli…

Would the swimmers in the center lanes have any advantage by being furthest away from the wall-induced chop?

Yes, those on the outside will have choppier waters as the water bounces off the sides of the pools. The modern competition pools do a pretty good job of reducing this effect, but it is always there.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#86

Post by etempleton »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #82
chatmasta wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you put them in the slow lanes then there would be an incentive to place poorly in qualifying rounds.

Why not give them a choice of Lane?

Everyone would choose the middle lanes anyway.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#87

Post by etempleton »

croes wrote: post #15
samldev wrote: post #5

I was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things: 1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool. 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop. A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggli…

>A lot of this is perception vs. reality,” he said. “If you were to talk to many very accomplished coaches, they would say the pool has to be a minimum 3 meters deep. Most of our research shows that anything over 2 meters is frivolous. … Obviously, some depth is very important. But after a certain point, it's diminishing return. Maybe it's just the swimmers and not the pool as such

There are more things that influence if a pool is fast or slow than just the depth.

How the pool gutters neutralizes or doesn’t neutralize waves; water temperature; the design of the lane lines; design of the starting block; the electronic touch sensors(how hard are they - do you get a good solid feel for push off?); etc

Depth is probably only part of the reason the pool is slow. It would be very unlikely everyone happens to be slow at the Olympics this year.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#89

Post by Someone »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #83
croes wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they all change their behavior because they know the pool is less deep as they are used to. Some kind of placebo effect or fear of coming to close to the ground. Many athletes are superstitious.

There's Olympic gold medals on the line. People are going absolutely as hard as they can. There's no way an Olympic pool for the actual Olympics should be that shallow. If athletes prefer a deep pool, the pool should be deep. Swimming is one of the premier sports at Olympics. It's also a facility that has one of the most reuse if built properly. You don't think a Paris aquatic center wouldn't get tons of reuse in wor…

> People are going absolutely as hard as they can.

Not necessarily. If they think the pool is slower, they’ll think they will have to swim for a bit longer, and may (possibly subconsciously) adjust their power output to allow for having something left when they have swum for as long as they think it would take them in a fast pool.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#90

Post by s1artibartfast »

croes wrote: post #80
lou1306 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a lot of the swimmers themselves are not able to go anywhere near their personal bests: this is a sharp reversal from past Olympics, where many athletes reached new personal records. Plus, they are the worldwide foremost experts on competitive swimming. Definitely I would be more interested in their evaluation of a swimming pool rather than trust "research results" from the company that built the pool in question…

Maybe they all change their behavior because they know the pool is less deep as they are used to. Some kind of placebo effect or fear of coming to close to the ground. Many athletes are superstitious.

When you measure human performance, placebo matters.
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