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Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

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Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#81

Post by runarberg »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #80
racional wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding. You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for furthe…

There is no article about an ethnostate but if you use the widest possible definition of ethnicity and this ethnicity forming a common state would be considered an ethnostate, I guess Israel would be an ethnostate too. As probably most if not all other countries in the world as well. What would your criticism of that be specifically? Again, minorities often try to flee to Israel for different reasons, not the other w…

I’m not an expert in Israeli law, but I’m sure quite a few laws in Israel meat the definition of ethno-state, which is practices and policies that favors shifting the demography in favor of a particular ethnic group. Wikipedia actually has a few examples of laws which meet the criteria[1], including the nation state law.

If we look at the practices it becomes very clear that Israel meats the criteria of being an ethnostate. The immigration policy prohibits a single ethnic group (Palestinian Arabs) from immigrating, while creating the conditions for that same ethnic group (as well as others, such as Bedouin) to emigrate. The conditions for emigration includes confiscating land, limiting mobility, etc. In the occupied territories these practices become abundantly clear, and we even have an ICJ case backing this narrative[2].

Ethno-states are actually quite rare in history, you need a pretty strong military or police to enforce demographic policies, and before industrialization most states didn’t have that. Ironically one can argue that Roman Judea would meat that critearia when they expelled all the Jews. Notably they didn’t have the same ethno-demographic policies in neighboring Galilee, hinting that this was an expensive policy which the Roman state deemed not worth the costs. After industrialization ethno-states become a much more viable option, but we still mostly see them as a single ethnic regions of empires, most commonly via settler colonialism, where the settler are the ethnic rulers. And even then the policies were usually short lived as local population pushed back.

Syria does not have practices and policies to shift the demography in favor of one ethnic group at the cost of another, and neither does Egypt. One can argue that Turkey does (against the Kurdish people) but this does not come anywhere close to the ethnic policies enacted by Israel today.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy#Israel

2: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#82

Post by racional »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #80
racional wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That a country having a "dominant group" is something that would form an ethnostate? Of course the fact of one group being dominant is not sufficient; there need to be deeply structural (legal) mechanisms in place for that group to maintain its dominance, which has certainly been the case with Israel since its very founding. You may consult the definitions in Wikipedia as to "ethnostate" and "ethnic group" for furthe…

There is no article about an ethnostate but if you use the widest possible definition of ethnicity and this ethnicity forming a common state would be considered an ethnostate, I guess Israel would be an ethnostate too. As probably most if not all other countries in the world as well. What would your criticism of that be specifically? Again, minorities often try to flee to Israel for different reasons, not the other w…

Again, it is not the simple fact of a dominant majority that make a country an ethnostate; it is this plus legally codified structures of dominance. The article on the subject is under 'ethnocracy' not 'ethnostate':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy

There may be other countries in the region which satisfy this definition also, or fall on the spectrum; I do not single out Israel for criticism in this regard. The topic only came up in regard to the events 1947-1948, specifically the UNPPP -- and why the indigenous populace were not exactly celebrating this proposal or its likely consequences (which are of course now their day-to-day reality).

In regard to those consequences, specifically: the creation of an ethnostate on a large portion of their ancestral homeland; dominated by foreigners, and intrinsically and permanently hostile to their well-being and their right of self-determination.

Which they naturally opposed, as any self-respecting people would.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#83

Post by dunekid »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #75
runarberg wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This narrative is ahistorical. The nationalism movements of the 19th century were all over the world, and against most empires, not just the Ottomans. So the new found Arab nationalism was new, just like Serbian or Greek nationalism was new, we also had a new found Irish nationalism and even Icelandic nationalism in the 19th century. Even zionism started as a 19th century ideology. Nor was the nationalism movements o…

It is neither a narrative nor ahistorical in contrast to your claims. A 10 minute walk through Israel would significantly deny your suggestion about it being an ethnostate. That isn't some misinformation on your part, it is just a malicious lie.

Please do not throw the accusations of malintent when the truth presents otherwise, by not just a 10 minute walk.

Here is an excerpt from the Judicial examination of the nature of Israeli state by it's own judges.

>At their center stands the right of every Jew to immigrate to the State of Israel, where the Jews will constitute a majority; Hebrew is the official and principal language of the State.

The state forces the nature of State, and it's principal language, on what was predominantly an Arab place, with settlers Speaking Yiddish, German, Polish and Russian. Moreover it gives a right to unchecked immigration to one ethnicity.

And it moves it's own population to occupied areas in West Bank, with freedom to carry and use assault weapons, and to Golan heights, etc in violation of humanitarian and legal aspects.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#84

Post by raxxorraxor »

dunekid wrote: post #83
raxxorraxor wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is neither a narrative nor ahistorical in contrast to your claims. A 10 minute walk through Israel would significantly deny your suggestion about it being an ethnostate. That isn't some misinformation on your part, it is just a malicious lie.

Please do not throw the accusations of malintent when the truth presents otherwise, by not just a 10 minute walk. Here is an excerpt from the Judicial examination of the nature of Israeli state by it's own judges. >At their center stands the right of every Jew to immigrate to the State of Israel, where the Jews will constitute a majority; Hebrew is the official and principal language of the State. The state forces th…

What has that to do with anything? I stay with that accusation as long as there are accusation of Israel being an ethnostate at least. With so many languages an ethnostate is seems even more unlikely, but that is another matter.

Fact is Israel is the country most friendly to any minority in the wider region and the adaptation or ignorance of facts here is quite telling.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#85

Post by runarberg »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #84
dunekid wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not throw the accusations of malintent when the truth presents otherwise, by not just a 10 minute walk. Here is an excerpt from the Judicial examination of the nature of Israeli state by it's own judges. >At their center stands the right of every Jew to immigrate to the State of Israel, where the Jews will constitute a majority; Hebrew is the official and principal language of the State. The state forces th…

What has that to do with anything? I stay with that accusation as long as there are accusation of Israel being an ethnostate at least. With so many languages an ethnostate is seems even more unlikely, but that is another matter. Fact is Israel is the country most friendly to any minority in the wider region and the adaptation or ignorance of facts here is quite telling.

Even if that is true—which I doubt[*]—it is completely irrelevant to the question of ethnostate. The question of ethnostate is if the country has practices and policies to control the demographics that favors the dominating ethnic group. A country could be very friendly to minorities but still control the demographics in favor of the dominant ethnicity. The immigration policy of Israel, the carving out of the West Bank, the policy of settlements in the West Bank, all work together in demonstrating that Israel does indeed have practices and policies to control the demographics to favor the dominant ethnic group.

Just a case in point, if we look at historic ethno-states, Apartheid South Africa had dozens of languages. But they still had a policy of carving out bantustans and deporting people into those bantustans, with the hope that the demographics in the remaining South Africa would favor the dominant racial group. Apartheid South Africa was an ethno-state.

That said, Israel obviously is not the most friendly to any minority in the wider region. Israel is currently engaging in an ongoing genocide against a particular minority, they are illegally occupying their territories, and—as the ICJ has just ruled—they are engaging in apartheid against this minority. When all this is evident, how can you say they are “friendly” towards that minority?

---

*: There are millions of metrics to measure this, and you could surely point to the few which conveniently “proofs” your point. You’re not even doing that, so I highly doubt.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#86

Post by runarberg »

runarberg wrote: post #85
raxxorraxor wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has that to do with anything? I stay with that accusation as long as there are accusation of Israel being an ethnostate at least. With so many languages an ethnostate is seems even more unlikely, but that is another matter. Fact is Israel is the country most friendly to any minority in the wider region and the adaptation or ignorance of facts here is quite telling.

Even if that is true—which I doubt[*]—it is completely irrelevant to the question of ethnostate. The question of ethnostate is if the country has practices and policies to control the demographics that favors the dominating ethnic group. A country could be very friendly to minorities but still control the demographics in favor of the dominant ethnicity. The immigration policy of Israel, the carving out of the West Ba…

Since this is HN and threads are supposed to be more interesting as they get longer, I might mention the neither subtle nor important different between Apartheid and Ethnocracy. It is not an important difference because either is demonstrably bad and shouldn’t happen, neither is it subtle because one portrays to civil rights (as in denying civil rights to a minority) and the other is about demographics (as in controling the demography to favor a certain ethnic group).

The Jim Crow south in the pre civil rights era USA was an apartheid, as the legal framework denied civil rights to Black Americans. It was not however an ethno-state as there was no policy of controlling the demographics of Black Americans. The eugenics movement tried to change that, and if the Eugenics movement had been more successful it is highly likely that some of the states in the USA would have become ethno-states.

In Israel the practices and policies in the West Bank are apartheid, and policies of preventing immigration from occupied territories into Israel, and establishment of Jewish settlements inside the West Bank are behaviors of an ethno-state.

So just like Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa, Israel maintains both an apartheid and an ethnocracy.

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#87

Post by o999 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #59
sundalia wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Googlers are not comfortable with that. Lots of them are immigrants who understandably don't want to be associated with US-endorsed genocide.

Googler opinions are all over the map. Not all immigrants are Muslim, you'll find Jewish ones also, and it isn't surprising their opinions would differ.

Isn't it anti-semitic to imply that Jewish people are genocide supporters?

Re: Ties between Google's Project Nimbus and Israel's military

#88

Post by racional »

o999 wrote: post #87
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Googler opinions are all over the map. Not all immigrants are Muslim, you'll find Jewish ones also, and it isn't surprising their opinions would differ.

Isn't it anti-semitic to imply that Jewish people are genocide supporters?

That's not the implication here.
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