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Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

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Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#81

Post by TheLoafOfBread »

janice1999 wrote: post #26
HillRat wrote: post #8

The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.

> might work out for some folks If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence. https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...

Tech is mostly made from men and you don't need to share your sexual preference with anyone, so I don't really see a problem. Make some money and get back.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#82

Post by pokerface_86 »

janice1999 wrote: post #26
HillRat wrote: post #8

The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.

> might work out for some folks If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence. https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...

if by straight men you mean the vast majority of the tech / finance workforce ???

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#83

Post by pokerface_86 »

poincaredisk wrote: post #24
culopatin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet half of the ones in the US. At least based on when I got some offers last year when I was considering moving to Europe

What are you saving for? I keep hearing people in the US earn much more, and it's certainly true in absolute terms, but... I live in a poorer (but not poor, just not germany/france) EU country, with a relatively good but not great salary. I earn way more than I need - I can afford the apartment I want (recently moved to a bigger one due to becoming a parent), I know medical bills won't bankrupt me in case of emergenc…

porsche’s and penthouses

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#84

Post by antifa »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #49

The number one thing about the US is the sheer hope and belief in the future. Europe, maybe apart from France, surprisingly, is depressing and nobody thinks the future is bright.

I remember that vibe before 911, I remember every year there was a notable invention/increment in technology, and about after the 2008 housing crises, the vibe ended or was noticeably being phased out, now every year google/smartphones/gaming/climate/cost of living/politics gets worse (dark patterns, SEO spam, DLCs microtransactions, etc.).

Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers.

The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#85

Post by tharmas »

constantcrying wrote: post #20
beaglesss wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dubai has far looser work visa and banking laws. And low taxation. Infrastructure may not be as cheap but it is accessible. If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.

>If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective. Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.

Where in the USA?

There's California and NYC. The rest is either economically depressed or a poor cultural fit. Sure, theres a few pockets of exceptions too, Pacific NW, Arizona, Colorado etc.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#86

Post by red-iron-pine »

j7ake wrote: post #64
rPlayer6554 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.

OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.

I used to pay around ~2500 a month for 2 kids in the greater DC Area (richest counties in the US).

I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#87

Post by ilrwbwrkhv »

antifa wrote: post #84
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #49

The number one thing about the US is the sheer hope and belief in the future. Europe, maybe apart from France, surprisingly, is depressing and nobody thinks the future is bright.

I remember that vibe before 911, I remember every year there was a notable invention/increment in technology, and about after the 2008 housing crises, the vibe ended or was noticeably being phased out, now every year google/smartphones/gaming/climate/cost of living/politics gets worse (dark patterns, SEO spam, DLCs microtransactions, etc.). Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home o…

Maybe so. But then you see the sheer hopelessness in countries like the UK, Canada and Australia and you realize the US is still where things can happen.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#88

Post by HillRat »

ls612 wrote: post #10
HillRat wrote: post #8

The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.

I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff that won’t touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame? Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.

For most expats Dubai is fine as long as you understand exactly where the lines are drawn and are willing to live within them (it's orders of magnitude more relaxed than KSA; far more restrictive than, say, Singapore; and a world away from Europe), but even then you can find yourself in trouble; doing business with powerful political clans -- and it's hard to avoid doing that at a certain level -- is a fraught scenario. I had one friend whose company went into bankruptcy because of two clients (a senior UAE shaykh and an Indian billionaire) who refused to pay tens of millions in outstanding uncontested invoices.

About that same time another UAE (Nahyan) shaykh demonstrated his displeasure to a business partner by having him driven into the desert, buried up to the neck, and (nonfatally) run over with a Range Rover while being videotaped. When that business partner (an American) attempted to press charges, the Shaykh was acquitted and the businessman convicted in absentia for blackmail.

I've had more issues and fewer legal recourses with Gulf clients and partners than anywhere else in the world (including the Bilad al-Sham/Levantine region of the Mideast), while doing less work with them than almost anywhere else, so I'll admit to being biased, but it really is a region where the rule of law is, depending on the context, highly personalized or outsourced to religious authorities, and presented without any of the procedural due processes you're used to.

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#89

Post by beaglesss »

HillRat wrote: post #88
ls612 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff that won’t touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame? Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.

For most expats Dubai is fine as long as you understand exactly where the lines are drawn and are willing to live within them (it's orders of magnitude more relaxed than KSA; far more restrictive than, say, Singapore; and a world away from Europe), but even then you can find yourself in trouble; doing business with powerful political clans -- and it's hard to avoid doing that at a certain level -- is a fraught scenar…

That's the double edge sword of such a relaxed visa regime. Such open borders work well when either you have a classical liberal free market* with little social services (1800s America) or leaders who rule with an iron fist that can kick out undesirables the moment theyre inconvenient(Dubai).

Thus Singapore, Dubai, 1900s Hong Kong, 1800s America are some of the most famous examples. Free market with no social services doesn't really exist much anymore so most the remaining examples of open borders are something approximating dictatorship, except maybe Argentina(in practice they have almost no enforcement of immigration).

*In theory

Re: Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

#90

Post by j7ake »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #86
j7ake wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.

I used to pay around ~2500 a month for 2 kids in the greater DC Area (richest counties in the US). I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.

I can imagine 4k a month for daycare, plus 2k for part time nanny (kids get sick!), 1k for extra bedroom, 1k for other expenses like food, clothing, bigger car.

That is 96k a year.

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