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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#81

Post by constantcrying »

archerx wrote: post #61
constantcrying wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.

The criminal precedent of punishing a person for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of is so bad that I honestly didn't think any reasonable person could come up with this.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#82

Post by quonn »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #29
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

Companies are persons, except they are not. They cannot die. They cannot go to prison. This concept of a moral person is a totally unfair advantage that they exploit again and again.

I hear this claim a lot but is it really true? Corporations in most countries are „legal persons“ in the sense that they can act like a person. This is what limited liability is all about. In fact the very name „incorporation“ comes from giving a sort of „body“ to an entity that otherwise doesn‘t have one in order to shield the owners from liability as it should be.

I do not think that a corporation is considered to be a person beyond that. It‘s merely a way to establish limited liability for shareholders which requires a mechanism for the corporation to sign contracts without an owner signing on it‘s behalf.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#83

Post by tgv »

constantcrying wrote: post #36
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

This is such a "this looks tough, I don't feel like doing it" take. Who is responsible? As others have said, the structure of a corporation defines that. If person A has to do what person B says, then B is responsible. If B "didn't know", then B has been lacking.

It also avoids sacking the "innocent people" and it sets an example for other companies. The greedy corporate culture really needs a bit of check-and-balance.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#84

Post by atoav »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

This won't change if the buck can stop with a non-human legal entity. The people who are incentivized to make actively harmful decisions like these need to also carry personal risk for endangering human life.

Otherwise it is a decision where the manager who decides to stretch the limits will get praise and cash if it works out, without carrying much or any personal risk — even if they are fined or fired, chances are they already got their share.

If we want such things from happening the people taking these gambles need to be painfully aware that it might land them in prison for a long time, and fines need to be proportional to the money earned — that means higher by a magnitude or more so there is not even a doubt that it won't pay off.

I like to live in a society where people building critical infrastructure go to prison if they are willingly taking shortcuts.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#85

Post by coretx »

Etheryte wrote: post #52
constantcrying wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criminal justice system doesn't exist to emotionally satisfy the victims.

That depends on how you look at it, it would be pretty straightforward to take the philosophical stance that that's all that it exists for. Mostly it's just a matter of framing.

Law/legal philosophy indeed is different everywhere... Where i'm at, I was always told that the primary purpose of the process is to deter and prevent the crime from ever happening again.

In this particular Boeing case, I bet my ass that the corporate world is taking notes as the plea deal is a sweet deal; thus a incentive is provided to do the crime. It would be funny if the victims of the next Boeing sue over inciting the crime they will be a victim of.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#86

Post by constantcrying »

amelius wrote: post #79
constantcrying wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that would be a perversion of justice. You can not pay someone to take on criminal liability for crimes they didn't commit and could not have any knowledge of. Just imagine what precedent this would set if it was allowed. If courts would accept that criminal liability can be transferred in exchange of cash, how would the justice system look like? "Culture" is completely ephemeral and having a court of law det…

So you are saying that in a case like Boeing's the CEO was completely unaware of the shitshow at their company and couldn't have taken appropriate actions?

A dysfunctional company with bad management is not a crime. Putting a CEO in jail because he is bad, not because any crime had been committed, is an even worse idea.

The specific case here about criminally negligent software design errors almost certainly never came up to the CEO. If there is evidence otherwise and the CEO was aware of the problem and decided that the risks were acceptable then he obviously should go to jail. This was not the case here as far as I am aware.

Knowing of the issue is the important thing here. If you want another case you can look at the Diesel Gate Scandal at VW, it is German law, but the single most important question is always "who knew", because if the person did not know and had no reason to want to know he HAS to be innocent, regardless whether it is the CEO or anyone else.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#87

Post by squigz »

constantcrying wrote: post #75
davedx wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??

You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.

It seems to me the real perversion of justice is executives constantly avoiding consequences for their actions

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#88

Post by michaelt »

constantcrying wrote: post #75
davedx wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??

You can not punish someone for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of. That is ridiculous and a perversion of justice.

If the ship's captain was asleep in a drunken stupor while the 17 year old helmsman crashed the ship into an iceberg, should the captain go unpunished?

I feel that punishing sobriety and rewarding drunkenness is probably not a good idea, if we want to avoid our ships hitting icebergs.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#89

Post by doctor_eval »

davedx wrote: post #59
constantcrying wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard, so you have to go against the corporation itself. Punishing a corporation is easy, but the government hates doing it for obvious reasons. It means ruining something which is useful to you and punishing tens of thousands of completely innocent people, with inevitable layoffs. What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture, a…

> The problem is that finding the people responsible can be extremely hard > What Boeing really needs is a complete change in management culture Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though? The CEO and the other C-level people. This isn't really the daunting difficult problem you make it out to be: the buck stops at the C-suite. Who else could possibly be ultimately responsible??

> Who is ultimately responsible for management at a company though?

Technically the board is ultimately responsible for management. It’s the board’s responsibiity to hire delegates and to monitor their performance.

That’s how it’s supposed to work, but it seems to me it’s been a very long time since board have been anything other than rubber stamps for the CEO.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#90

Post by sudosysgen »

constantcrying wrote: post #81
archerx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make the CEO responsible, want those big rewards (high ceo pay) get ready to deal with big responsibility. I’m sure if CEOs were criminally liable things would change very quickly.

The criminal precedent of punishing a person for a crime they didn't commit and had no knowledge of is so bad that I honestly didn't think any reasonable person could come up with this.

There is immense precedent to punish a person for a crime they were responsible for and that they should have known was happening.
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