Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#81

Post by mistermann » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:26 PM UTC

trod123 wrote: post #74

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

And the last decade has been a master class in solidifying faith if not worship of the very thing that facilitates it all: "democracy", our most sacred institution.

It's so easy, it's like taking candy from babies.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#82

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:31 PM UTC

trod123 wrote: post #74

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

> primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently

Are you a regulator voter? Do you have a dialogue with your electeds’ offices? If not, try starting there. Express, as unemotionally as you can, why you believe this is something you believe in. If possible, get your views seconded in writing.

If you’re in America or Europe, there are plenty of non-violent remedies at the ready. The problem is privacy is uniquely afflicted with the uselessly cynical, to the point that it’s considered electoral junk at the national level.

> What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi

Please don’t do this. It’s one step below analogising petty complaints to Auschwitz. (Archer can do it. You can’t.)

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#83

Post by talldayo » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #64

gklitz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any politician pirring forth this stupid statement needs to be asked if they are willing to submit to having their lives filmed 24/7 with no censorship of anything. They won’t even let us see their “private” messages to other politicians let alone let us see them neglect their families.

> Any politician pirring forth this stupid statement Genuine question: who was the last one in America who did? (Article’s “some politicians” link is broken for me.) Asking because it strikes me as a straw man we, who believe in privacy as a right, enjoying arguing against.

Does Ashton Kutcher ring a bell? https://fortune.com/europe/2023/09/26/thorn-ashton-kutcher-y...

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#84

Post by CTDOCodebases » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

fallinditch wrote: post #57

Governments will always seek more surveillance of citizens - it's like crack to them. If we don't push back and work hard to protect our freedoms and privacy then we will end up in something like Orwell's 1984. See what's happening in China. The surveillance and oppression are particularly severe in the Xinjiang region, where authorities have implemented a multi-layered system of monitoring and control. This includes…

They will seek more surveillance because the majority of the citizenry desires safety and a competent and efficient government over personal freedom.

We continue to have societies because the average person realizes that their life would be better on average if they outsourced their personal security to the strongest third party available. Until this third party becomes inconveniently corrupt.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#85

Post by slg » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:44 PM UTC

advael wrote: post #71

slg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because who you are keeping something private from is often more important than what you are keeping private. For example, there are plenty of things I would be fine sharing with the anonymous internet that I wouldn't share with my coworkers. My coworkers knowing something embarrassing about me has obvious harm. There is no real harm in strangers knowing something embarrassing about me. And companies and governments…

The problem with making this case is that the threats are kind of stochastic. Usually what happens to an individual is that either a mistake occurs or some unpredictable factor changes to suddenly get them targeted. I had a relative who was blindsided by identity theft, fending off creditors for bills that were in her name because she was in some breach (I think maybe the sony one? Often not even easy to say how it h…

You inadvertently hit on another problem with this debate. The three historical examples you chose were identity theft, Muslims post 9/11, and trans people. The root of all those people’s problems isn’t privacy, it is some other broken part of society. So why focus on the symptom instead of that root issue?

Muslim and trans people don’t want to hide their status, they want people to accept their status. Their effort would be more efficiently used advocating for acceptance than advocating for privacy.

Same goes for identity theft. That isn’t caused by bad privacy regulations, it is caused by bad financial regulations that put too much of the burden of fraud on the individual and not the company who fell for the fraud.

In any debate about privacy, it never seems like privacy should be the number one concern for the people involved. Like if you are worried about your credit report being hit for your HN comments, maybe spend some effort trying to change that credit system rather than trying to hide your HN account.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#86

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:46 PM UTC

talldayo wrote: post #83

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any politician pirring forth this stupid statement Genuine question: who was the last one in America who did? (Article’s “some politicians” link is broken for me.) Asking because it strikes me as a straw man we, who believe in privacy as a right, enjoying arguing against.

Does Ashton Kutcher ring a bell? https://fortune.com/europe/2023/09/26/thorn-ashton-kutcher-y...

Fair enough. Kutcher is an elevated idiot with an agenda, and I didn’t specify politician.

Is there any evidence of an elected, in America or Europe, using this argument?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#87

Post by ffgjgf1 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:54 PM UTC

trod123 wrote: post #74

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

> The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently

I think that’s a rather absurd claim. The real problem is that most people couldn’t care less, they neither understand the issues and/or are in the “don’t have anything to hide” camp. Unfortunate I guess that’s just how democracy works..

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#88

Post by renegat0x0 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 8:56 PM UTC

Common way of thinking:

- "I have nothing to hide"

- "they already have all my info anyway"

The problem is that people have not seen it directly. They have not seen that someone used their data against them especially. It is done mostly 'behind the scenes'.

However it is easy to dismantle these thoughts:

- With system of surveillance every politician can be 'under foreign surveillance', which is not a good thought

- There were some cases about somebody not receiving insurance due to surveillance. What if you will not receive social money, or benefits. You may even not know why you were treated by government in certain way

- You do not know if your data were sold, or trained for AI, or for robot dogs, or for war, or to China (Facebook sold data to china)

- Your data can be used against you potentially during your whole life. What if your DM comment might lead to problems with your employment in the future?

- Governments change with times. What if some nasty figure, nazi like, becomes a president of let's say for example America. How you can be sure your data will be treated with care, and that it will not be misused, or used against you?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#89

Post by tptacek » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:13 PM UTC

fallinditch wrote: post #57

Governments will always seek more surveillance of citizens - it's like crack to them. If we don't push back and work hard to protect our freedoms and privacy then we will end up in something like Orwell's 1984. See what's happening in China. The surveillance and oppression are particularly severe in the Xinjiang region, where authorities have implemented a multi-layered system of monitoring and control. This includes…

I just got my local government to drastically ratchet back surveillance powers they already had, through patient organizing and advocacy. It wasn't even all that difficult. This "governments will always seek more surveillance" thing isn't axiomatic; in a lot of cases, it's probably just lazy cynicism.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having "nothing to hide" is irrelevant (2016)

#90

Post by fsflover » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:29 PM UTC

trod123 wrote: post #74

advael wrote: post #11

I think most people who say "I have nothing to hide" are just mimicking a slogan they no doubt heard someone they respect or at least think talks well say Another common refrain, especially since Snowden, is just glib defeatism ("they already have all my info anyway") which is also a poor way to think about policy (and to make personal choices, but I won't argue those with most people) I really think the main reason…

I disagree that people are complacent. What we are seeing today is the same thing East-germany saw under The Stasi. The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently. When you have people as a group lie for profit, and they corrupt your representatives and there is no one to hold them to account. They don't give you the choice, and you can't hold them accountable first because you fin…

> > The primary issue is that there is no means to correct the situation non-violently

Support https://eff.org, https://edri.org etc.