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The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

daveon.design

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Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#81

Post by arlort »

indoordin0saur wrote: post #70

It's wild to me that in Europe "National Parks" will have people living in them, forestry plantations and even clearcutting. In North America National Parks are entirely kept as wilderness with no use or development of the land allowed except for tourist infrastructure built and managed by the park administrations themselves.

As far as I'm aware national parks in the US were created on land that didn't really have anyone living in it (maybe Indians in some of them), you'd have to go back to the early middle ages to find similar areas in Europe (I'm guessing but at least in places like Italy I'm fairly sure of that)

I really really wish we had similar expanses of untouched nature here in Europe but unfortunately it was all gone by the time people started seeing untouched nature as something to preserve

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#82

Post by f6v »

kristjank wrote: post #42
tokai wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood burning is never sustainable, 'green', nor healthy. It boggles the mind that it is not normal to outlaw it.

I do not understand how it's not sustainable if it has sustained itself as a part of normal wildlife management for centuries without any destructive interventions besides cutting and replanting old trees in a fairly remote region.

> I do not understand how it's not sustainable

It was “sustainable” only due to small population.

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#83

Post by COGlory »

arlort wrote: post #81
indoordin0saur wrote: post #70

It's wild to me that in Europe "National Parks" will have people living in them, forestry plantations and even clearcutting. In North America National Parks are entirely kept as wilderness with no use or development of the land allowed except for tourist infrastructure built and managed by the park administrations themselves.

As far as I'm aware national parks in the US were created on land that didn't really have anyone living in it (maybe Indians in some of them), you'd have to go back to the early middle ages to find similar areas in Europe (I'm guessing but at least in places like Italy I'm fairly sure of that) I really really wish we had similar expanses of untouched nature here in Europe but unfortunately it was all gone by the time…

This isn't true. Some, yes, but parks like Acadia, Grand Teton, and Smoky Mountain all had people living in them.

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#85

Post by cameldrv »

A few years ago I bought a package of firewood at the grocery store in California which ended up being Estonian Birch. As firewood it was terrible, it was almost impossible to light.

It struck me that there must be some very weird economic situation for it to be profitable to ship poor quality firewood 8000 miles or so for sale.

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#86

Post by cameldrv »

arlort wrote: post #78
indoordin0saur wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really was an own-goal how the green movement in Europe has been shutting down nuclear power plants.

The green movement has two roots, one is the worry about global warming the other (and much older) is about pollution/ecology and in some circles new age/hippy pseudo religion The latter has always been opposed to nuclear and the former converged into it because until relatively recently they were the only ones listening I'm not saying it was smart (it wasn't) but it's how we got here

The anti nuclear power movement in Europe was also pretty strongly influenced by Soviet info ops. The Soviets badly wanted to sell natural gas to Europe, because it was one of the only products that the Soviet Union was competitive on in the Western export market.

Nuclear was, in the 70s, looking like potentially a complete replacement for gas, as it almost became in France. Slowing down or stopping nuclear in Europe was a big priority for KGB active measures.

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#87

Post by racional »

cameldrv wrote: post #86
arlort wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The green movement has two roots, one is the worry about global warming the other (and much older) is about pollution/ecology and in some circles new age/hippy pseudo religion The latter has always been opposed to nuclear and the former converged into it because until relatively recently they were the only ones listening I'm not saying it was smart (it wasn't) but it's how we got here

The anti nuclear power movement in Europe was also pretty strongly influenced by Soviet info ops. The Soviets badly wanted to sell natural gas to Europe, because it was one of the only products that the Soviet Union was competitive on in the Western export market. Nuclear was, in the 70s, looking like potentially a complete replacement for gas, as it almost became in France. Slowing down or stopping nuclear in Europe…

The anti nuclear power movement in Europe was also pretty strongly influenced by Soviet info ops.

Citation needed, especially for the "pretty strongly" part.

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#88

Post by aaronblohowiak »

tokai wrote: post #47
kristjank wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand how it's not sustainable if it has sustained itself as a part of normal wildlife management for centuries without any destructive interventions besides cutting and replanting old trees in a fairly remote region.

Deforestation has gone wrong many times in human history, from early to current. Tree logging has the same issues all other types of farming has, soil erosion, chancing of biotopes, disrupting runoff etc. The bigger the scale the worse consequences of tree farming are. The mono-culture of tree farming is closer to a parking lot than it is to nature.

There is forestry without tree farming, particularly for local firewood production from hunting lands, etc

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#89

Post by wood_spirit »

kristjank wrote: post #41
watwut wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eastern countries added to the union benefit from Union. They are the ones who are given quite a lot of money. They are not squeezed, they are directly financially benefiting.

They do receive a lot money through the funds, cheaper loans and investments, but it has to be compared to the money their counterparts earn by exploiting the much cheaper workforce, resources and energy prices in the global east. The minimum wages discussed in the article are at a 1:3 ratio. It's trivial to funnel some money back if you've managed to gain 3 foreign workers for the price of 1 domestic. There is a wor…

Over time cheaper countries and regions of countries get improved standards of living etc and stop being cheap.

The Poland that joined the EU is so different from the Poland of today etc. It is subtle and not instant so perhaps younger people don’t see it so easily?

Re: The War on Estonian Forests (2022)

#90

Post by Log_out_ »

arlort wrote: post #78
indoordin0saur wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really was an own-goal how the green movement in Europe has been shutting down nuclear power plants.

The green movement has two roots, one is the worry about global warming the other (and much older) is about pollution/ecology and in some circles new age/hippy pseudo religion The latter has always been opposed to nuclear and the former converged into it because until relatively recently they were the only ones listening I'm not saying it was smart (it wasn't) but it's how we got here

That eso stuff ends way to often in nature purity ideology which is close by a hair to racism. I never understood why that ideologic "field" escapes all scrutiny and is considered idealistic and good by default. They can yell for genocide on the poor via foolish agrarian policies and nobody bats an eye.
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