Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

opensource.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–88 of 88 posts

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#81

Post by nottorp »

chuckadams wrote: post #80
nottorp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Discourse have searchable history? Discord is out not because it's proprietary, but because it doesn't have usable history. They could be GPL and they'd still be bad.

Of course Discourse is searchable, it wouldn't be much of a discussion board if it wasn't. Many Discourse-based fora I've been on even do a live search as you type the subject of a post, something that turns out really handy for community support boards. Discord's lack of searchability is certainly a biggie, but having all history locked away and unexportable in any way is the worst part of it. And damn the two simil…

Ah so Discourse is ... a forum software? Got it :)

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#82

Post by tarsinge »

x0x0 wrote: post #74
asoneth wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they saw it as an opportunity to build a community Many small open source projects still operate this way and their community consists a small number of people who have fun hacking on a project together after work. But as projects grow some of them acquiesce to end-user expectations and slowly turn into "organizations". They have schedules and regular releases, commit to timely triaging of bug reports, provide foru…

People also just get wildly entitled. I stay anonymous, but I built some software that people use for scientific analysis. I give it away; I don't put it on my resume; the only thing I've gotten from it is it makes me a bit happy that maybe I've saved someone else hundreds of hours of work. There's also some subtle numerical properties that take real work to get right. (Not all, but some) people demand support, featu…

I think this a consequence of the open-source marketing strategy of big tech companies and commercialization the parent talked about. When developers use open-source, most of the time maintainers are paid and it’s part of their job, and of the parent company’s strategy.

In this landscape it’s unfortunate but I think one way to avoid this especially if published on GitHub is to be upfront in the README that this is a hobby project with no support, only to be used professionally at your own risks (buried in the license is not enough). Otherwise if projects are presented too similarly to professional ones it’s fair to expect developers to be confused, it’s just unfortunate to what GitHub has turned and that the burden is on hobbyist maintainers to differentiate now but that’s where we are.

And also unfortunate is the practice of resume building by publishing professional looking projects on GitHub that adds to the confusion.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#83

Post by asoneth »

x0x0 wrote: post #74
asoneth wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they saw it as an opportunity to build a community Many small open source projects still operate this way and their community consists a small number of people who have fun hacking on a project together after work. But as projects grow some of them acquiesce to end-user expectations and slowly turn into "organizations". They have schedules and regular releases, commit to timely triaging of bug reports, provide foru…

People also just get wildly entitled. I stay anonymous, but I built some software that people use for scientific analysis. I give it away; I don't put it on my resume; the only thing I've gotten from it is it makes me a bit happy that maybe I've saved someone else hundreds of hours of work. There's also some subtle numerical properties that take real work to get right. (Not all, but some) people demand support, featu…

Thanks for your contributions!

Deleting inappropriate requests is totally reasonable, but one alternative could be a template letter, if you don't happen to have one already. When I receive inappropriate demands for my time I find it hard to muster the sympathy necessary to write a kind and patient message explaining that their priorities are not my priorities. It's much easier if I have something ready to go.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#84

Post by asoneth »

tarsinge wrote: post #82
x0x0 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also just get wildly entitled. I stay anonymous, but I built some software that people use for scientific analysis. I give it away; I don't put it on my resume; the only thing I've gotten from it is it makes me a bit happy that maybe I've saved someone else hundreds of hours of work. There's also some subtle numerical properties that take real work to get right. (Not all, but some) people demand support, featu…

I think this a consequence of the open-source marketing strategy of big tech companies and commercialization the parent talked about. When developers use open-source, most of the time maintainers are paid and it’s part of their job, and of the parent company’s strategy. In this landscape it’s unfortunate but I think one way to avoid this especially if published on GitHub is to be upfront in the README that this is a…

I like the idea of a standardized way of conveying where the project exists on a spectrum of personal hobby to foundation. I'd personally imagine four levels:

Level 0: This code meets (met?) my personal needs. I'm pleased if you find it useful but do not expect a response to suggestions or bug reports.

Level 1: This tool has a solo maintainer. I'll do my best to incorporate suggestions that fit my vision and address bug reports with reproduction steps when I have free time.

Level 2: This project is maintained by a handful of like-minded contributors. Besides suggestions and bug reports, if you're interested in contributing, please join our discord/element/forum/listserv.

Level 3: This project is maintained by an organization. Before submitting a bug report, please read our wiki.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#85

Post by Gormo »

chuckadams wrote: post #54
Gormo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Discourse and Discord seem entirely inappropriate for FOSS projects -- they are both proprietary walled-garden SaaS applications that aren't themselves consistent with FOSS principles, and they are both exclusively web-based with close coupling between the UI and the underlying functionality, which makes it difficult or impossible for users to access, log, and archive messages with tools most optimal for their o…

Discord is definitely inappropriate, but Discourse is open source and has an API for anyone's custom use, including stuff like RSS feeds. I've been dealing with email since the 80's, and I'm quite familiar with the power of email clients, but for any given project I'd much rather use Discourse. While email clients have message organization down pat, the UI for content itself is retrograde, and email deliverability is…

You're trying to make this into an old vs. new argument, but I'm just looking at good vs. bad. Discourse being self-hostable FOSS certainly ameliorates that part of my criticism, but it still suffers from being a web-only application with close coupling between functionality and presentation, and contrary to your complaint about "retrograde" UIs, I find Discourse's interface to be quite slow and disorganized, and offers a "narrow" view of discussion, in contrast to more mature UIs' "broad" view.

"Message organization" is one of the most significant elements of this particular use case. Maintaining well-organized archives is extremely important, and it's not enough for messages merely to be searchable -- they should be easily browseable by topic and time range.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#86

Post by chuckadams »

Gormo wrote: post #85
chuckadams wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discord is definitely inappropriate, but Discourse is open source and has an API for anyone's custom use, including stuff like RSS feeds. I've been dealing with email since the 80's, and I'm quite familiar with the power of email clients, but for any given project I'd much rather use Discourse. While email clients have message organization down pat, the UI for content itself is retrograde, and email deliverability is…

You're trying to make this into an old vs. new argument, but I'm just looking at good vs. bad. Discourse being self-hostable FOSS certainly ameliorates that part of my criticism, but it still suffers from being a web- only application with close coupling between functionality and presentation, and contrary to your complaint about "retrograde" UIs, I find Discourse's interface to be quite slow and disorganized, and of…

I'd say Discourse makes a different set of tradeoffs, and a large percentage of people are fine with those tradeoffs. Discourse could use some alternative clients for sure, and it'd be even better if there were a standard for such clients to coalesce around. It seems these days all the effort around standardizing such a thing is in the fediverse, which is a fine idea but ActivityPub is an over-engineered monstrosity that results in incompatible servers and clients anyway.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#87

Post by Qwertious »

shiroiushi wrote: post #32
Qwertious wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A less controversial example than nazis (sigh) might be requiring basic hygiene. If you don't exclude people who don't exhibit basic hygiene (e.g. smelling like literal shit), then a whole lot of casuals will be driven away. If you do exclude them, you exclude them. Now, you might say, "what exactly is the difference between nazis and some people who smell like actual shit? you just swapped some words out", but, you…

>A less controversial example than nazis (sigh) might be requiring basic hygiene. I'm not sure why Nazis are "controversial". They're generally the universal boogeymen. Although these days, it does seem like some Nazi ideology has become more popular in some places in recent years... When we test software, one thing we normally do is look for edge cases, and test those. If the program works with the edge cases, then…

>I'm not sure why Nazis are "controversial".

"Free speech" is the standard defense of nazis. "Censorship" makes banning nazis somehow controversial. Which is stupid, but it's a thing that exists. Sigh.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#88

Post by x0x0 »

asoneth wrote: post #84
tarsinge wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this a consequence of the open-source marketing strategy of big tech companies and commercialization the parent talked about. When developers use open-source, most of the time maintainers are paid and it’s part of their job, and of the parent company’s strategy. In this landscape it’s unfortunate but I think one way to avoid this especially if published on GitHub is to be upfront in the README that this is a…

I like the idea of a standardized way of conveying where the project exists on a spectrum of personal hobby to foundation. I'd personally imagine four levels: Level 0: This code meets (met?) my personal needs. I'm pleased if you find it useful but do not expect a response to suggestions or bug reports. Level 1: This tool has a solo maintainer. I'll do my best to incorporate suggestions that fit my vision and address…

This is a late update but the site and docs make it extremely clear it's a level 0. ala here's a thing that may help you; I no longer use it either personally or professionally so adjust your expectations accordingly.

This has not dissuaded people from complaining.

Post reply on HN