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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

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Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#81

Post by mcmcmc »

djmips wrote: post #73
User23 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between small arms and artillery is absolutely enormous. Handguns and rifles make loud popping noises. Exploding artillery shells are concussive bombs that produce brain rattling blasts.

Navy Seals aren't firing artillery. The article says the Seals brains were damaged by their own weapons which I assume to be rifles but maybe I'm wrong.

SEALs and other special forces use a lot of heavy weaponry and explosives in addition to small arms like rifles and sidearms. Think door breaching charges, grenades, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#82

Post by [deleted] »

ein0p wrote: post #69
munificent wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think it's because of whatever brain damage they may have encountered, or because they could not find meaning in their civilian lives? Why not both? One of the key challenges with taking care of humans is that we rarely have the luxury of having only a single problem at a time.

Because if we are to address this problem we have to identify the primary cause.

[deleted]

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#83

Post by shkkmo »

ein0p wrote: post #69
munificent wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think it's because of whatever brain damage they may have encountered, or because they could not find meaning in their civilian lives? Why not both? One of the key challenges with taking care of humans is that we rarely have the luxury of having only a single problem at a time.

Because if we are to address this problem we have to identify the primary cause.

If a problem has multiple causes, only addressing one of them seem like a mistake.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#84

Post by Mistletoe »

p51-remorse wrote: post #55
jrmg wrote: post #46

Artillery crew members who fired thousands of rounds in combat came home plagued by hallucinations and psychosis Could this problem also be affecting civilian gun enthusiasts? Or is the order of magnitude of the exposure just wildly lower compared to the military, even in the most enthusiastic?

If you ever get the chance, go shoot some small caliber weapons. I think everyone should at some point to have a baseline in their head for what guns are. Plus, I think it’d be good for people to know you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. And then if you have a chance to be around some small artillery, do that too. It’s hard to…

https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Being-Shot

Intrigued, I got some info from wikihow.

> If you are a fast runner or have bad knees, run in a straight line away from the attacker towards cover. The faster you can get away, the fewer shots they will be able to fire.

>If you are a slower runner and do not have knee trouble, a zig-zag run may be a better option. You may still be hit in this case, but the chances of being hit in a vital area may be reduced.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#85

Post by xattt »

morkalork wrote: post #47
elmomle wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes a lot of sense. People are fundamentally changed by their experiences in combat zones. I'd imagine that going somewhere new afterwards allows you to be whoever you now are on your own terms, whereas going home means continually experiencing the pain of no longer fitting in to the life and loving relationship that you'd had before, with no relief in sight.

Could also be the difference between having a plan with long term goals that leads you to a new city vs not knowing what to do next and defaulting to just going back home. Maybe it's not that home is bad, but the fact you ended up there.

> Maybe it's not that home is bad, but the fact you ended up there.

Particularly when vocational and transition supports are available from the VA.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#86

Post by p51-remorse »

Mistletoe wrote: post #84
p51-remorse wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever get the chance, go shoot some small caliber weapons. I think everyone should at some point to have a baseline in their head for what guns are. Plus, I think it’d be good for people to know you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. And then if you have a chance to be around some small artillery, do that too. It’s hard to…

https://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Being-Shot Intrigued, I got some info from wikihow. > If you are a fast runner or have bad knees, run in a straight line away from the attacker towards cover. The faster you can get away, the fewer shots they will be able to fire. >If you are a slower runner and do not have knee trouble, a zig-zag run may be a better option. You may still be hit in this case, but the chances of being hit…

I’m guessing there aren’t many studies on this, but as a young, fast runner I’d zigzag every time if they’re shooting _at_ me. At least run in a straight line that isn’t collinear with the shooter’s position. Obviously, if you can find cover, put it between you and them and cover distance.

It’s so, so hard for any amateur to hit a target that is moving radially in a polar coordinate system centered on them, at all. I’d bet your average shooter who makes the news can’t put 7/10 shots in a stationary silhouette at 10yd. It’s harder than you’d think.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#87

Post by DaoVeles »

munificent wrote: post #44
ein0p wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's because of whatever brain damage they may have encountered, or because they could not find meaning in their civilian lives? I've read it's often the latter in military men, especially the ones that really believed in the mission and experienced highly stressful life or death situations. They come back and they're taken aback by the mundane bullshit that our lives are in comparison to what they've be…

> Do you think it's because of whatever brain damage they may have encountered, or because they could not find meaning in their civilian lives? Why not both? One of the key challenges with taking care of humans is that we rarely have the luxury of having only a single problem at a time.

I would say that of almost all predicaments of the world. We like to reduce our problems down to single factors but they are almost always a marbled symphony of good & bad, black & white, up & down.

While we cannot find a response to everything, we can isolate the key significant factors.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#88

Post by DaoVeles »

mathsmath wrote: post #51
jrmg wrote: post #46

Artillery crew members who fired thousands of rounds in combat came home plagued by hallucinations and psychosis Could this problem also be affecting civilian gun enthusiasts? Or is the order of magnitude of the exposure just wildly lower compared to the military, even in the most enthusiastic?

I think it depends on the shockwave. Maybe someone can math it out, but it’s like the sound leaf blower makes vs standing right next to a jet engine. I have never seen a shockwave on the ground behind a “normal” firearm, but it seems commonplace with artillery.

The question is if there is a cumulative effect from the smaller shock waves or if there is a threshold that needs to be exceeded to cause issues.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#89

Post by CapstanRoller »

yieldcrv wrote: post #6

This is the kind of research I've been yearning to see on suicide. Just telling people not to, or to call a hotline, seemed like the worst most patronizing advice as it never solved the underlying thing. I've since learned that there is a subset of suicidal people where that's enough, where the suicidal tendency is a kneejerk decision that can be disrupted, but it bugged me that its not serving everyone that becomes…

One way to think about it is via the concept of body autonomy/sovereignty: your life is in your hands. IMHO dignified peaceful suicide should be a right granted to all free individuals. If one is free to live, why is one not free to die? But that is too radical of an idea, and upsets all sorts of people (especially the money men)

Sometimes opting out is the only rational choice. If there is no support in society for an individual who cannot work and generate profit, if there is no support in society for an individual who is terminally ill (expensive palliative care aside), if there is no support in society for an individual who has "fallen throigh the cracks" (and the cracks are mighty wide), then what is there to do? Slowly die on the street?

This thinking can lead to all kinds of dark paths, such as the state being in charge of the matter (and abusing it, as they can already abuse it via the carceral system), but ultimately we have to confront the fact that as a society we often leave people with no way out, collectively shrug our shoulders, and then act horrified when they take the only viable option that immediately removes all suffering.

People who are uncomfortable with suicide are ultimately uncomfortable with facing the reality that they live in a society that encourages it.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#90

Post by jader201 »

shkkmo wrote: post #83
ein0p wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if we are to address this problem we have to identify the primary cause.

If a problem has multiple causes, only addressing one of them seem like a mistake.

If there is a more likely single “tipping point”, solving for that one may be easier and therefore more likely to have an impact.
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