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Notes on Tajikistan

mattlakeman.org

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Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#81

Post by mkoubaa »

inglor_cz wrote: post #53
mkoubaa wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "Islam being kept in check" in this way sounds an implication that religion (or perhaps just this one) ought to be suppressed. This sort of attitude and policy coming from it is like gasoline for religious extremism, and the fact that Tajikistan exports extremists should be enough evidence for that

It is not just a religion, but a legal and societal system. A very medieval one. Few people care if you believe that Muhammad rode to heaven on a magic horse (Buraq). But quite a lot of people care if you want to introduce hand amputations for theft, as demanded by Sharia Law, or different inheritance rules for sons and daughters where being female = being less valuable. The medieval-practical parts of Islam must def…

Islamic law is understood by Muslims to be applied only in an Islamic state. In a secular state, the consensus understanding by Muslims is that the secular law is to be followed. A secular state need not suppress Islam

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#82

Post by mkoubaa »

meowtimemania wrote: post #51
mkoubaa wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "Islam being kept in check" in this way sounds an implication that religion (or perhaps just this one) ought to be suppressed. This sort of attitude and policy coming from it is like gasoline for religious extremism, and the fact that Tajikistan exports extremists should be enough evidence for that

I think by "kept in check" they mean good separation of church and state. Some islamic countries don't have good separation of church and state.

Some Islamic countries are family businesses that have international recognition as states for historical and geopolitical reasons. I don't take the actions of those countries seriously

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#83

Post by stef25 »

mkoubaa wrote: post #77
jl6 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Suppressed” would be more extremism. “Kept in check”? Yeah, that’s probably a good treatment for any religion.

Keeping religions in check as such is incompatible with liberalism. Secular societies need to be maintained, but antagonizing religious people with phrases like that is not how.

Make sure to use right words so they don't have a meltdown, like toddlers.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#85

Post by blackhawkC17 »

grecy wrote: post #64
rvense wrote: post #6

An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the col…

> many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway, and 3 years driving right around the African continent. What you said can equally be applied to many…

> Incredibly friendly, warm, kind and happy people to a degree I did not know was possible on planet earth. Sadly they're held down by corruption, ineptitude and the West.

The problems are significantly of their own doing. I live in one such country (Nigeria), and many people say the same thing about my people- warm, friendly, and whatever.

But being warm and friendly doesn’t build a successful nation. Tribalism, high tolerance for corruption from the locals, and lack of the rule of law are what ruin these countries, and citizens are either too apathetic or outrightly support the same incompetent leaders ruining them.

Besides, some people are friendly to white foreigners but hostile to locals from another tribe.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#86

Post by protomolecule »

mkoubaa wrote: post #84
protomolecule wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your take extremely naive.

I sometimes even have faith in democracy, believe it or not.

Have you heard of Christian extremists in the USSR which is known for suppressing religion? Exactly.

Likewise Islam in Tatarstan is completely benign.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#87

Post by thriftwy »

protomolecule wrote: post #75
wewtyflakes wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo...

Your own link says that during the revolution of 1911 in China local theocracy seized power in Tibet and held to it for 40 years. "After the Xinhai Revolution in 1911, most of the area comprising the present-day Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) became a de facto independent polity, independent from the rest of the Republic of China" "At the time Political Tibet obtained de facto independence, its socio-economic and poli…

It's always funny to me how facts about previous allegiance are withheld with impunity, apparently in hopes to confuse a distracted reader.

I can forgive people for forgetting to mention that Baltic states were part of Russia for centuries before they were re-annexed by the USSR in 1945. Indeed I can see how people had 20 years of independence and weren't fans of being included into a socialist utopia. But, just yesterday I've read that Georgia had a "Bolshevik invasion of 1921". A province of Russian Empire for a really long time and up until 1917.

It looks like the free press thinks you can make legitimate territorial claims go away by not mentioning their existence.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#88

Post by inglor_cz »

mkoubaa wrote: post #81
inglor_cz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not just a religion, but a legal and societal system. A very medieval one. Few people care if you believe that Muhammad rode to heaven on a magic horse (Buraq). But quite a lot of people care if you want to introduce hand amputations for theft, as demanded by Sharia Law, or different inheritance rules for sons and daughters where being female = being less valuable. The medieval-practical parts of Islam must def…

Islamic law is understood by Muslims to be applied only in an Islamic state. In a secular state, the consensus understanding by Muslims is that the secular law is to be followed. A secular state need not suppress Islam

"A secular state need not suppress Islam"

What about a secular state that doesn't want to become an Islamic state, but has a significant minority that has the opposite wish?

AFAIK this is the most important common political problem across the Islamic world. Many organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood want to Islamize their respective secular countries, some by peaceful means, others by violence. There has already been at least a dozen civil wars around that issue.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#89

Post by anamexis »

ashilfarahmand wrote: post #32
justsomehnguy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet Union > openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks Makes me wonder, maybe something happened between ethnic Tajiks and ethnic Russians between Soviet Union collapse and the present.

OP visited about 15 years ago so if you are hinting at the more recent event, it doesn't sound relevant. And if it is not that, I'm not sure what you are hinting at.

Most likely the Tajikistani Civil War, 1992-1997.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#90

Post by stef25 »

medwards666 wrote: post #7

I spent a fortnight with a small group of friends motorcycling along the Pamir highway back in 2022, then another week or so over in Kazakhstan (off the bikes this time). Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go travel and get off the beaten track.

Dream trip. Your own bikes ? How "free" were you and how difficult was it ? I've traveled by motorbike on 4 continent now and am dying to visit central asia to do more of that.
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