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Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

threema.ch

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Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#81

Post by mariusor »

gillesjacobs wrote: post #48
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely the thing. Whenever EU does something people don't like, they hate EU, not the council members who voted for it.

Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or…

In this specific case I believe that it's the EU Council that pushes for the current iteration of the law, which is formed of the head of states for each EU member.

So, even if they might not be explicitly elected to be in the EU governance, most of them have reached that spot through more or less democratic means. "More or less" because Prime Ministers are usually nominated not elected, but that's still as part of each country's democratic process.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#82

Post by gillesjacobs »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #70
gillesjacobs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or…

By voting for the members of parliament, and the parliament then deciding everything else... Ideally things should work out as the people want it. Otherwise it would mean that democracy just doesn't work...

Supranational/federalist "representative" particracy does not work.

Representative democracy works better with increased locality, where policy and politicians are directly beholden to constituents.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#83

Post by beeboobaa3 »

gillesjacobs wrote: post #48
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely the thing. Whenever EU does something people don't like, they hate EU, not the council members who voted for it.

Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or…

Yes, this is called a representative democracy. The fix is to vote for representatives who represent your values. Or run yourself.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#84

Post by vbezhenar »

neugiergiraffe wrote: post #58

Can someone explain to me why, over time, democratic states tend to drift into mass surveillance ? Is it beacuse a lot of people feel unsafe or is it because the people supposed to ensure our security see it as the "easiest" or most effective way to do their job? Is there so much benefit to having a fuctioning mass surveilance apparatus, and if yes, who benefits of it if not the people for whom these rules for in the…

There's no democracy, it's just show. Mass surveillance is necessary to keep the power.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#85

Post by [deleted] »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #70
gillesjacobs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or…

By voting for the members of parliament, and the parliament then deciding everything else... Ideally things should work out as the people want it. Otherwise it would mean that democracy just doesn't work...

[deleted]

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#87

Post by beeboobaa3 »

blumomo wrote: post #37
lukan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and the voters don’t care." Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? There just has been EU election in germany and the nationalist gained a lot. And none of the big parties otherwise said a clear no to that, so what could I do, except vote a small party against that, but too small to really do something? Voters care. But they see often no point in voting anymore.

> Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? Is the EU really a benefit to the people? Or is it a shit pool full of scum bags providing quite some damage to societies?

> Is the EU really a benefit to the people

Obviously, yes.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#88

Post by bratwurst3000 »

patates wrote: post #35
wickedsickeune wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Greece, we recently elected as representatives for the EU Parliament: * a 71 year old lady, with no social media and no public speeches ever. * a guy who used a nickname for his last name, that matched with a military general (who is well known), and many people thought he was the general * a "journalist" that was caught twice talking on live TV, conversing with a pre-recorded video * a convicted criminal It's imp…

Hello neighbor. You will never win the competition for choosing the worst possible politicians as long as Turkey has Erdoğan :)

You forget they have Mazedonia and Bulgaria as neighbors ;)

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#89

Post by harha »

HPsquared wrote: post #56
wickedsickeune wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Greece, we recently elected as representatives for the EU Parliament: * a 71 year old lady, with no social media and no public speeches ever. * a guy who used a nickname for his last name, that matched with a military general (who is well known), and many people thought he was the general * a "journalist" that was caught twice talking on live TV, conversing with a pre-recorded video * a convicted criminal It's imp…

Goes to show how disengaged the voters are.

Quite difficult to be engaged with the selection of candidates. It’s really quite the struggle to find someone halfway decent these days

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#90

Post by sprash »

FabHK wrote: post #54
sprash wrote: post #44

"Chat Control" is already real. This is just codifying prevalent practice done by a multitude of agencies into law.

Sorry, is there any evidence that E2EE eg in WhatsApp, Signal, etc. is routinely broken? I am not talking about exceptional hacking of phones of individual high-value targets for surveillance by nation-state-level actors, but mass surveillance.

If there was public evidence allowed to be released nobody would be using those algorithms obviously. The point of those algorithms is to make them hard to break for the public and easy to break for the agencies . E.g. None of your mentioned products use quantum hard encryption. It is not far fetched to assume that all the relevant agencies have access to a working quantum computer. But I doubt you need even sophisticated hardware. Most "government approved" encryption algorithms should be considered compromised from the get-go.
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