How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court • Hacker News Board

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#81

Post by gpderetta » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:13 AM UTC

constantcrying wrote: post #8

Tistron wrote: post #3

Does anyone know whether and how this translates to other places in the world? For me, it's the most interesting with EU/Sweden. We don't have courts like this do we?

I don't think the courts really matter, what does matter are the legal guarantees. In the EU it is an explicit two years, so I think a situation like this, where a 9 year old appliances is being repaired under threat of legal action, simply won't arise as the customer has no legal basis for his claim.

A not often discussed problem with the EU guarantee is that in the first 6 months, every defect is presumed to have been present at the time it was bought. After 6 months it is on the consumer to prove it, and for most things it is just not worth it to pay for an expert opinion.

So in practice the iron clad guarantee is only 6 months for most consumer products.

At least that's the interpretation of the law in the UK.

edit: small claims courts are quite accessible in the UK, so often the threat of small claims can get thing moving.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#82

Post by gabesullice » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:13 AM UTC

navigate8310 wrote: post #10

I've had good success with tweeting the company and explaining how the problem is still unresolved.

The court of public opinion :)

That system fails unprivileged people though. Even if the "privilege" is "a number of Twitter followers".

That's probably why a tradition of more formal courts arose. But they probably worked better when they operated at a communal scale.

Think: "walk down the road to the courtroom on the second Wednesday of the month and wait your turn" and if you win, you get to boast about it at the pub for a few weeks: "can you believe ol' Jon thought he could pull the wool over my eyes?! Ha! Shame on him! He had to pay me for two days labor, the bastard!"

I wonder how we bring some of that convenience and public shaming back?

My sense is that there's not enough personal accountability because the courts and companies are too big for "ol' Jon" to held to account.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#83

Post by consp » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:17 AM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #46

shermozle wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question I ask straight back at you: how long do you think an oven should last?

This is an interesting question; Netherlands has a similar law, and the general guidelines for stuff like ovens is, depending on the purchase price: ≤ € 199 2 years € 200 - 299 3 years € 300 - 399 4 years € 400 - 499 5 years € 500 - 599 6 years € 600 - 699 7 years ≥ € 700 8 years Note these are just guidelines and not fixed rules. On one hand this seems rather short to me, on the other hand, it's kind of a "you get w…

An oven should last way longer than 2 years even if it's just 200 euro. These price/lifespan things are cow manure and made by trade associations and have no value in law.

200 euro also says nothing: 200 euro for a small tabletop oven is extremely expensive, for a large build-in one it's cheap. Considering as well it's usually a build in one, you can expect to not have to change it every two years.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#84

Post by 0xEF » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:17 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #63

r4indeer wrote: post #21

> Now an old fashioned light bulb shouldn't be expected to last a decade, but an oven? Funnily enough, there actually was the Phoebus cartel [1] which sought to reduce the lifespan of incandescent light bulbs to around 1,000 hours and raise prices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

I recall reading a quasi-debunking of this. I didn't go down the rabbit hole far enough to understand all the details, but it seems the situation was more complicated than just corporate greed. [1] The topic has been discussed here in the past a few times, including [2] and [3] 1: https://readmedium.com/en/the-phoebus-cartel-was-never-reall... 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21596792 3: https://news.ycombinat…

I would not call any of that a debunking, even quasi. Just a different dance around the same hard-to-swallow pill.

Company X makes a great product that everyone only needs one of and lasts a long time. Over time, the market starts to dwindle and. Company X is going broke. Now, Company X must either invest in innovation or reduce the lifespan of its current offering.

There's nothing inherently evil about this concept, but we tend to want to chalk it up to greed when Company X really just wants to survive and make a profit, which I suppose is the point.

The problem is the concept is ripe for abuse. If Company X makes their product worse, but starts charging more while laying off employees, posting record profits during recessions, adopts unnecessary subscription models cosplaying as continued service and development, etc...now we get to the greed part. There seems to be a line between designing a product to secure the longevity of Company X and straight up using your customers as micro-transaction ATMs with planned obsolescence. Some companies conspire to cross it.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#85

Post by gpderetta » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

graemep wrote: post #66

cbmuser wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that in the end the manufacturers will just increase prices or move production to low-wage countries, no?

How will moving production to low wage countries help? The importer and/or the retailer still have to comply with the law of the country they sell in. The only exception is when people buy from a foreign retailer online. However that is a problem regardless of where the retailer is as long as they are not in your country. My daughter (in the UK) currently has a problem with Boox (in the EU) refusing to replace a prod…

Did she pay with credit card? Often even debit cards offer chargeback although it is not a statutory right.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#86

Post by Denvercoder9 » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

bzzzt wrote: post #58

arp242 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting question; Netherlands has a similar law, and the general guidelines for stuff like ovens is, depending on the purchase price: ≤ € 199 2 years € 200 - 299 3 years € 300 - 399 4 years € 400 - 499 5 years € 500 - 599 6 years € 600 - 699 7 years ≥ € 700 8 years Note these are just guidelines and not fixed rules. On one hand this seems rather short to me, on the other hand, it's kind of a "you get w…

Note that this doesn't mean you get 8 years of warranty on an expensive oven. Just that if it fails in 4 years you still can claim 50% of the purchase price.

This is not true. You have the right to a "deugdelijk product" (good product) for the entire expected lifespan of the product, and if it breaks in that, they do have to fix it (or provide a comparable replacement).

If, however, for whatever reason you don't want that, you can't demand all your money back, but only 50%. That's only if you agree to the money though, the seller can't unilaterally choose to give you 50% back instead of repairing it.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#87

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:19 AM UTC

promiseofbeans wrote: post #65

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing seems fair enough...eliminates buyers remorse.

It's not as good for the environment, though. Some companies like Apple try to make up for this by replacing broken devices, then refurbishing and reselling the formerly broken device.

Hand-repair of mass-manufactured objects is really expensive, unfortunately. Especially in the West, where you require a bunch of scarce resources like "city land" and "human time".

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#88

Post by sitharus » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:20 AM UTC

xlii wrote: post #59

I disagree. I have a similar situation right now. Washing machine is leaking when load is anything bigger than light load. Initial guarantee claim to Whirlpool was sent 8 weeks ago. It's dead, no response from anyone. Under consumer rights shop should refund, but claim is without response for 3 weeks (14 calendar days is upper limit according to EU law + local regulations). Today I was supposed to contact the lawyer,…

That’s the same situation with the appliance but not with the law, because you have to use a lawyer.

Under New Zealand and Australian consumer law (the laws are different but similar) we have access to a low-cost tribunal. In fact in New Zealand you’re not allowed to be represented by a lawyer - on either side. It’s a single hearing with immediate resolution. Appeals and re-hearings are very limited and pretty rare.

I’ve used it twice. Both times the vendor magically found the warranty to be valid and fixed the issue before the tribunal date arrived. You don’t get a refund on the filing fee, but on most home appliances it’d be NZ$45, or about €25.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#89

Post by bell-cot » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

promiseofbeans wrote: post #36

We've got a similar thing in New Zealand: the Consumer Guarantees Act. The people who sold the broken thing to you can either fix it, replace it, or refund you the cost of it. The decision is unfortunately up to them, so they sadly often replace things rather than fixing them. Consumer NZ is usually used as the independent source for expected product lifetimes: https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expe…

15 years seems darn short for an oven. The (electric) one I have now is from the late 1960's, and perfectly functional. At church, our (gas) kitchen oven is about a century old - and the last service man we had said that it should be good for another century, if we're careful not to let it rust out.

Re: How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

#90

Post by justinclift » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 9:22 AM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #13

Asking a warranty repair on a 9 years old oven is a bit of a stretch. I doubt it'd fly in the EU.

From the article, the parent company themselves clearly say 13 years for ovens.

To quote from that article on the parent company's website:

    According to the American National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) - who
    helpfully released research called the Study of Life Expectancy of Home Components
    - the contemporary average lifespans are as follows:

    • Fridges - 13 years
    • Dishwashers - 9 years
    • Electric ovens - 13 years
    • Gas stoves - 15 years
    • Microwaves - 9 years
    • Dryers - 13 years

http://web.archive.org/web/20240318135242/https://www.winnin...