Mexico’s anti-avocado militias • Hacker News Board

Re: Mexico’s anti-avocado militias

#81

Post by makeitdouble » Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 12:50 AM UTC

h0l0cube wrote: post #75

makeitdouble wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that we need to check this point is one of the issue. There's a bunch of other organisations, in particular some are built by brands, and of course in a way that advantages them. Then there's coffee that has absolutely no audit and no designation, mostly because it's produced at low scale (the farm manages its own international sales in a way or another) and is extremely good on an ethical POV but can't be b…

If I see the green and blue Fairtrade® logo, I know it's been independently audited, otherwise I just assume the worst. There's no way to get around independent audits and a reputable trademark that signifies the product has been certified. The main issue is that most people aren't willing to pay the premium on super slim margin products (e.g., tea, bananas), but certainly there's enough people who pay a premium for…

To me the main issue is that it forces a middle men and auditor in all parts of the business, when nowadays we can get away with smaller structures and independent producers directly accessing end(ish)-consumers.

For coffee, that can mean an Colombian farm directly making a deal with a small London roaster. It was unrealistic 20~30 years ago, but this kind of match making is doable now, and a farm that gets access to the market in that way won't bother to pay and keep intricates records of absolutely everything they do for a third party organization that brings to them nothing to the table.

Another example of this is producers using the Fair Trade label to pass the lower quality goods at a guaranteed price ,and in parallel negociate higher prices for the more luxurious goods [0]. In that example the producer wins so I'd see it as a decent situation, but the brand perception getting hit might be problematic long term.

All in all, I think there's a movement to provide the transparency at the small scale level: a coffee roaster can showcase which independents farm makes their specialty coffee, and the farm negociate deals against a small set of small roasters instead of a giant conglomerate or the whole international market, making it more balanced as they can come up with a decent arrangement that benefits both.

That will never work for Starbucks or Nespresso, but for specialty coffee it seems to be a good model.

[0] https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_problem_with_fair_trade_...

Re: Mexico’s anti-avocado militias

#82

Post by h0l0cube » Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 7:49 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #81

h0l0cube wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I see the green and blue Fairtrade® logo, I know it's been independently audited, otherwise I just assume the worst. There's no way to get around independent audits and a reputable trademark that signifies the product has been certified. The main issue is that most people aren't willing to pay the premium on super slim margin products (e.g., tea, bananas), but certainly there's enough people who pay a premium for…

To me the main issue is that it forces a middle men and auditor in all parts of the business, when nowadays we can get away with smaller structures and independent producers directly accessing end(ish)-consumers. For coffee, that can mean an Colombian farm directly making a deal with a small London roaster. It was unrealistic 20~30 years ago, but this kind of match making is doable now, and a farm that gets access to…

That alternative sounds great, I just couldn't trust it without third-party audits. If Fairtrade International transitions to being plainly an auditing company rather than a facilitator, that's fine, as long as a standard is maintained and verified, and the mark continues to mean tangible human rights improvements. I get this is hard to do at scale, but it comes down to whatever is the least worst option.

There's a similar issue with free range eggs. At enough scale it becomes harder to verify that indeed the chickens are being kept in humane conditions. But at least for domestic production there can be some legal ramifications depending on the governments advertising/trade laws, and it's much easier for whistleblowers and activists to counter attempts at deception.

Re: Mexico’s anti-avocado militias

#83

Post by immibis » Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 1:27 PM UTC

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #49

fransje26 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Idaho suddenly did this people would freak out, would call it communism, and attack. Well, of course. People would start taking control of their own lives, and we don't want that. What would come next? The right to control their own body? How ludicrous. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/04/23/1246611...

You can make that argument in both directions. Better be careful what you are arguing for. The same arguments for 'States' to have the right to legalize pot is the same arguments the South uses for slavery. Texas could secede and enslave Mexicans and remove women's rights. That would be 'taking control' as they desire it. California could secede and give everyone free pot and mandatory beach days. That would be their…

Counterpoint: Good things are good and bad things are bad. It doesn't matter the mechanism. Legalizing slavery is still bad even if it's illegal. Legalizing pot is still good even if it's illegal. When you make rules that restrict both good and bad people, it tends to be bad, because the good people feel restricted by the rules while the bad people tend to just ignore them.

Re: Mexico’s anti-avocado militias

#84

Post by xenospn » Sat, Jun 15, 2024, 7:35 PM UTC

anthk wrote: post #25

29athrowaway wrote: post #5

Avocados have high demand, high price and expire fast. They require high amounts of water to grow.

And yet some idiots want to grow these in Spain in the 2nd worst place of the country to plant these beside of the Almeria and Aragonese deserts. And, yes, I know Spain it's highly irregular and due to the orography you can have literal deserts and green, Britain-like mountains and later Montana/Idaho like flat farmfields over very few hours by car kinda like USA.zip, but that's not the point.

Israel exports tons of avocado. Spain has very similar landscape and climate, no reason why they couldn’t do it.