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Why are debut novels failing to launch?

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Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#81
post #7

Seems like almost every creative industry (music, video games, art, writing) is having the same issue: Creation & publication tools are getting cheaper & easier to use, which means a lot more people can publish their creative ideas. With such a huge number of choices, discovery is now the issue. IMO discovery of what is truly high quality is still an unsolved problem. Seems like recommendation systems generally just…

> discovery of what is truly high quality

Sometimes nobody really tries. It doesn't help that there are a lot of perverse incentive systems out there. I'm approaching this from mostly an Internet-centric perspective:

One observation I've made is that any story I first see by advertising is probably bad, even if I later see it elsewhere - if it were actually any good, I would've seen it in one of the non-advertising-based mechanisms first. But sites have a strong incentive to promote advertisements to the detriment of quality (and the inaccuracy of "hot" lists).

The "zero-initial-following" problem can be solved by showing each story to a random small subset of active readers (since, as big as the supply of crappy stories is, the demand is always higher). This should be smeared across time-of-day, rather than having a "new" queue subject to gamification. There also needs to be a quick "I'm not interested" feedback, with reasons including "breaks site rules", "bad story", "bad grammar", "bad initial hook", "bad continuation", "I just don't like it" (featured prominently), and "this story is badly tagged" (because both positive and negative tag searches should be the primary way of using any reading site).

Some particular ways that tagging implementations can fail:

* categories and tags are different things, thus a tag is often missing

* no tagging for things like "this a fanfiction of", "this is translated from", "author is not a native English speaker", ...

* tag names are ambiguous, meaning completely different things in different contexts

* tag names are contextual, providing a different shade of meaning depending on other tags

* tags are not prominently displayed when actually looking at a work

* user-made tags are permitted, so duplicates and typos are common

* user-made tags are not permitted and essential tags that people wish to search for (or hide) are missing

* hierarchial (DAG, not tree) tags are not supported, thus a tag is often missing (or if present the list takes up too much space)

* no way to specify tag degree (does this just show up in the background, or is it the focus of the work?)

* number of tags is artificially limited to a very small number

* tag is applied but applicable content doesn't appear yet (mostly relevant for when published serially)

Obviously with outright malicious actors, simply fixing these won't fix everything, but they are absolutely needed to function at scale for the honest actors.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#82
post #77
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ten years ago I wrote a science fiction novel in Finnish, printed 300 hardcover copies at my own expense, and gave them away to people over the years. I would guess less than 10% of those copies have actually been read. (A few people claim they liked it, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean they read it.) So, a waste of time and money? That's not how I feel about it at all. The creative process was illuminatin…

> A few people claim they liked it, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean they read it. Reminds me of that Groucho Marx quote: "From the moment I picked up your book until I put it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it." :)

There's also the classic Churchill quote, when a friend who had just published a book gave him a copy: "Thank you very much, I shall lose no time reading it."

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#83
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, my friend. I enjoyed 1491, and I've been working my way through The Secret Life of Real Estate and Banking which is an economic analysis of the boom/bust cycle as it exists in modern fiat/debt based economies. Both are very different, but also very engaging and interesting.

I'm currently reading "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". It's the best scifi I've ever read, except it's true!

Great book! Sadly, I don't think the sequel (about the H-Bomb) is quite as good.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#84
post #3

My long retired parents met and worked in publishing. The continued deterioration of the industry is a source of deep sadness for them. I personally however recently found my own ray of hope. By chance I started reading something I really liked, found it was published by a tiny house that has a subscription plan- which is different from an aggregator having a book of the month kind of thing- and publishes super niche…

What you said reminded me of this Royal Road ( https://www.royalroad.com/home ) website I came across. It is not physical publishing (at least I don't think so), but it is a large collection of different authors who release books / work incrementally. The work mainly seems to be fiction of different varieties.

RoyalRoad has at least 3 major problems:

* there's a significant conflict between "this is a place to read stories" and "this is just a place to advertise for Amazon"

* the effective site rules are unwritten and quite arbitrary (one unwritten rule: you are not allowed to say anything positive about real-ish religions, only negative things)

* way too much pedophilia, including in site-promoted stories. Unlike religion, it's clearly not something they put effort into removing.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#85
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ten years ago I wrote a science fiction novel in Finnish, printed 300 hardcover copies at my own expense, and gave them away to people over the years. I would guess less than 10% of those copies have actually been read. (A few people claim they liked it, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean they read it.) So, a waste of time and money? That's not how I feel about it at all. The creative process was illuminatin…

Exactly. Don't expect anyone to read what you wrote, much less commercial success, unless you were a Harvard undergrad English prodigy who joined Penguin publishing, or somehow wiggled into the circle of [City] Review of [Each Others'] Books. It's a one-way, time-traveling message in a bottle comprised of dead trees. Doing it for art is a wolf's howl that it lived and that it could. Although, it's gradually shifted i…

Digging the phrase "wolf's howl".

I distinctly know this phrase is part of song's lyrics - but can't think of the name.

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#86
post #4

Spent several years writing and editing my first book before thinking the job was finished when I hit the publish now button. But it is literally only half the job done. The hell now is unless you get friends and family or an agency involved to push it and market it it will languish on the 500th page of any Amazon search forever. Oh and did I say that there are thousands of books a day released and there is nowhere y…

> I guess the only ones destined to read it are the AI training algorithms. I'm imagining a lone genius toiling away at a novel and dying in obscurity, with his work gaining recognition only after his death, à la Herman Melville, except in this future the writing eventually enters the canon by deeply impressing not human but machine readers.

I wonder if the machines will be more impressed by elegant, efficient, bug-free code

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#87
post #81
post #7

Seems like almost every creative industry (music, video games, art, writing) is having the same issue: Creation & publication tools are getting cheaper & easier to use, which means a lot more people can publish their creative ideas. With such a huge number of choices, discovery is now the issue. IMO discovery of what is truly high quality is still an unsolved problem. Seems like recommendation systems generally just…

> discovery of what is truly high quality Sometimes nobody really tries. It doesn't help that there are a lot of perverse incentive systems out there. I'm approaching this from mostly an Internet-centric perspective: One observation I've made is that any story I first see by advertising is probably bad, even if I later see it elsewhere - if it were actually any good, I would've seen it in one of the non-advertising-b…

> One observation I've made is that any story I first see by advertising is probably bad, even if I later see it elsewhere - if it were actually any good, I would've seen it in one of the non-advertising-based mechanisms first

A similar observation I've been finding lately is that if something is highly rated by critics and lowly rated by audiences, it probably sucks

I think the current batch of book/movie/game critics out there writing reviews are largely out of touch with what many people enjoy. They don't write useful reviews for consumers anymore

There's always accusations of review bombing being the culprit of such skewed scores, but even after sites claim they've culled all of the bad faith reviews, the ratio almost always still exists

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the only ones destined to read it are the AI training algorithms. I'm imagining a lone genius toiling away at a novel and dying in obscurity, with his work gaining recognition only after his death, à la Herman Melville, except in this future the writing eventually enters the canon by deeply impressing not human but machine readers.

Melville was a prominent author, an early sex symbol even, owing to the success and popularity of his novels before Moby Dick. That novel was hugely controversial in its day -- perceived as blasphemous, overwrought -- and it ruined his reputation as an author. Also, he'd spent money he didn't really have during the writing of Moby Dick so that when it flopped he couldn't survive on the famine part of the feast/famine…

This doesn’t line up with what is written on his Wikipedia page at all, which claims it was his next novel that was more controversial, and he clearly wasn’t that poor because he did a grand tour of Europe and the Mediterranean a few years after

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#89
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> discovery of what is truly high quality Sometimes nobody really tries. It doesn't help that there are a lot of perverse incentive systems out there. I'm approaching this from mostly an Internet-centric perspective: One observation I've made is that any story I first see by advertising is probably bad, even if I later see it elsewhere - if it were actually any good, I would've seen it in one of the non-advertising-b…

> One observation I've made is that any story I first see by advertising is probably bad, even if I later see it elsewhere - if it were actually any good, I would've seen it in one of the non-advertising-based mechanisms first A similar observation I've been finding lately is that if something is highly rated by critics and lowly rated by audiences, it probably sucks I think the current batch of book/movie/game criti…

There certainly are review-bombing campaigns, which can be known with certainty when caught at the same time and from the same source as review-boosting campaigns.

Most bad reviews are well-deserved, even if they make the author feel bad. In particular, "people shouldn't downvote if they've only read 5 chapters" is an invalid complaint - as an author, your duty is to write a strong start! (I suspect some of these are actually tagging/description failures, but that's also the author's responsibility)

Re: Why are debut novels failing to launch?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why Hacker News and Reddit block self promotion. "Hey, look at a thing I made!" is a lot more interesting than a lot of the other drivel that gets posted.

Hacker News doesn't block self promotion. You are free to post your own stories linking to your own work, I've done it, people do it all the time. There's a whole section for it, 'Show HN' (although it's not required to post there). And you're free to post links to your work in comments when relevant. Of course spam is unwelcome everywhere. Don't overdo it and don't be deceptive about it, and you'll be fine.

Hacker News does block self promotion as stated by a mod elsewhere in this thread
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