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Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

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Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#81

Post by quesera »

eviks wrote: post #58
piva00 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't found any apps on macOS the past 15 years where the "print" option wasn't where it's expected to be, would like an example just for the fun of it.

It doesn't matter, this is not a property of the OS or the menubar location, just an unenforced convention that you can adhere to on Windows as well

It matters. The menu location (and the keyboard shortcut) for Print has been in the Apple Human Interface Guidelines since the 1980s, and all Mac apps adhere to this convention.

You might be able find an exception -- there is no approval process for HIG in Mac apps. But you will not find an exception (v1.0.1 or later) in an app that has any meaningful user population, or is of any meaningful quality.

Ignoring HIG without good justification is a strong garbage signal. It was a surefire indicator of a crap Windows port back in the 1990s, but I don't think that's even a thing any more.

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#82

Post by piva00 »

eviks wrote: post #73
piva00 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the convention seems more often followed on macOS can't it be a property of the environment of macOS developers usually following the conventions better than on Windows? Even if not an inherent property of the system it's an emergent one, something causes it if it's not restricted by the system itself but is still a property that apps developed for macOS are much more homogeneous in their menus UI implemen…

If you shroud this basic misunderstanding in so much emergent mystery, sure, but otherwise no, and the real reason is simple enough - that's just one of the defaults in some "UI kits", which macOS devs can also use, including "disparate or bespoke" ones, and could've been just as consistent without it being positioned at the single top spot

Can we agree that it could be a 2nd or 3rd order effect of a design choice such as putting the menu system as part of the system's UI nudging developers to follow conventions instead of inventing their own menu UI because it resides inside a window which they can control completely, hence giving the thought of "I can do the menu however I want" a bit more probable?

It's hard to analyse and quantify this ergonomics objectively so I'm just spitballing a potential way that the menus in Mac apps follow much more the convention than Windows apps. I think Apple is also much better at keeping their UIs consistent than what the Windows team is, could also be another nudge to developers to follow them. And no, I'm not saying they're perfect, I hate all their UIs like the App Store, new System Settings (it's frankly stupid, also in responsiveness), Apple Music, etc.

Design choices are nudges, Apple's ecosystem has nudged developers much better into keeping some consistency across the system, it's much more jarring on macOS when an app doesn't follow conventions than on Windows.

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#83

Post by swah »

kevsim wrote: post #34
kstrauser wrote: post #3

Not the submitter, but I installed this a couple days ago to replace Bartender. For those not following along at home, the Bartender author just sold it to some sketchy app mill. It’s an app that legitimately requires screen recording permissions to work. I trusted the old author’s reputation. I have zero trust in the own owner. Ice isn’t as good yet. It’s not nearly so configurable. For example, you can either hide…

Why do these apps require screen recording permissions to work? Just curious.

To run a bunch of "hacks" that make it work better than the alternatives, I guess:

https://www.macbartender.com/Bartender5/PermissionInfo/

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#84

Post by atombender »

xlii wrote: post #26

Offtopic, but am I the only person surprised how badly Apple stalled when it comes to window management and UX on MacOS? I feel that today, as a power user/professional, MacOS wouldn't be usable without applications like Bartender, external window manager such as Rectangle/Divvy etc. I feel strong attraction coming from yabai, but disabling SIP is too much for me. Personally I'm reaching the point where I'd migrate t…

I don't personally care about advanced window management like tiling windows. But I do use Spaces constantly to divide my screen into "work" and "personal", and Apple has introduced a huge, annoying bug macOS Sonoma that is not being fixed.

Since Sonoma, windows regularly are stuck on top of other windows. This has been known since the betas in 2023 [1] and persists till this day. It typically happens during restoring after a reboot, but it can happen at basically any time when a window is created a space that isn't the first one.

The workaround is to drag the window from the second space into the first, release the mouse button, and then drag the window back into the second space. This appears to reset whatever the internal state keeps track of window order.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/16bb19g/sonoma_finde...

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#85

Post by emsixteen »

lyall wrote: post #9

I use Hidden Bar ( https://github.com/dwarvesf/hidden ) for this. It works well enough despite not being updated in a while, though there is a bit of jank. Just tried out Ice and it seems to be a nice, lower jank replacement!

I use Hidden Bar too, it's done the job for me, but if there's a reason to hop to another I'm all ears.

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#86

Post by eviks »

quesera wrote: post #81
eviks wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter, this is not a property of the OS or the menubar location, just an unenforced convention that you can adhere to on Windows as well

It matters. The menu location (and the keyboard shortcut) for Print has been in the Apple Human Interface Guidelines since the 1980s, and all Mac apps adhere to this convention. You might be able find an exception -- there is no approval process for HIG in Mac apps. But you will not find an exception (v1.0.1 or later) in an app that has any meaningful user population, or is of any meaningful quality. Ignoring HIG wit…

Windows also had ancient conventions, so what?

> and all Mac apps adhere to the convention, or are laughed out of existence.

so not all Mac apps adhere

> there is no approval process

indeed

> Ignoring HIG without good justification

Oh, but there is a very easy justification - most of these defaults are poorly (unergonomically) engineered based on design ignorance from the 80s

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#87

Post by lycopodiopsida »

eviks wrote: post #86
quesera wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters. The menu location (and the keyboard shortcut) for Print has been in the Apple Human Interface Guidelines since the 1980s, and all Mac apps adhere to this convention. You might be able find an exception -- there is no approval process for HIG in Mac apps. But you will not find an exception (v1.0.1 or later) in an app that has any meaningful user population, or is of any meaningful quality. Ignoring HIG wit…

Windows also had ancient conventions, so what? > and all Mac apps adhere to the convention, or are laughed out of existence. so not all Mac apps adhere > there is no approval process indeed > Ignoring HIG without good justification Oh, but there is a very easy justification - most of these defaults are poorly (unergonomically) engineered based on design ignorance from the 80s

I have yet to see how the defaults of windows are more ergonomic. I am also not aware that humans have significantly changed as a species since the 80s, so all the the ergonomic considerations are the same.

Besides, it completely misses the point - ergonomics are often about convenience and knowing what to expect. A zoo of frameworks and UI paradigms is a most terrible outcome with any kind of HIG. Microsoft is not able to keep a consistent UI paradigm for their own software - what a shining beacon of chaos they are.

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#88

Post by quesera »

eviks wrote: post #86
quesera wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters. The menu location (and the keyboard shortcut) for Print has been in the Apple Human Interface Guidelines since the 1980s, and all Mac apps adhere to this convention. You might be able find an exception -- there is no approval process for HIG in Mac apps. But you will not find an exception (v1.0.1 or later) in an app that has any meaningful user population, or is of any meaningful quality. Ignoring HIG wit…

Windows also had ancient conventions, so what? > and all Mac apps adhere to the convention, or are laughed out of existence. so not all Mac apps adhere > there is no approval process indeed > Ignoring HIG without good justification Oh, but there is a very easy justification - most of these defaults are poorly (unergonomically) engineered based on design ignorance from the 80s

The Mac app ecosystem considers HIG failures to be serious bugs, and they do not survive. So yes, for all meaningful definitions, "all Mac apps adhere".

You do not appear to know what you're talking about here, and I don't know why you're bothering to argue. Show me an example of an even semi-popular Mac app which uses a different convention for Print, and we might have a conversation.

Your excerpted quotes are misleading, but I'll respond to one point:

> most of these defaults are poorly (unergonomically) engineered based on design ignorance from the 80s

You just invented that problem. Show me a more ergonomic design for Print. A large part of design/usability success is consistency and predictability.

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#89

Post by web3-is-a-scam »

kstrauser wrote: post #3

Not the submitter, but I installed this a couple days ago to replace Bartender. For those not following along at home, the Bartender author just sold it to some sketchy app mill. It’s an app that legitimately requires screen recording permissions to work. I trusted the old author’s reputation. I have zero trust in the own owner. Ice isn’t as good yet. It’s not nearly so configurable. For example, you can either hide…

I didn’t know Bartender was sold. I thought it was fishy to need screen recording permissions but I assumed it was because of “security” features of the new macOS/m series chip/whatever so I just let it go because I trusted the Bartender dev.

Uninstalled. What a shame.

Re: Ice – open source menu bar manager for macOS

#90

Post by [deleted] »

bartvk wrote: post #79
xlii wrote: post #26

Offtopic, but am I the only person surprised how badly Apple stalled when it comes to window management and UX on MacOS? I feel that today, as a power user/professional, MacOS wouldn't be usable without applications like Bartender, external window manager such as Rectangle/Divvy etc. I feel strong attraction coming from yabai, but disabling SIP is too much for me. Personally I'm reaching the point where I'd migrate t…

Stage Manager was introduced in Ventura, which is definitely a form of window management. I don't think you can call that "badly stalled"?

[deleted]
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