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Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

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Re: Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

#81

Post by polemic »

rndmize wrote: post #59
polemic wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of points. Whenever you put the word 'government' and 'innovation' into the same sentence, you need to check your working. Government is, by and large, terrible at technical innovation. And innovation by mandate will, predictable, be a non-starter. That said, there are areas where it is appropriate - see my earlier examples (tranit bus feeds are another one) - where the relevant government agency has found a…

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your use of the term technical innovation, but weren't the Manhattan Project, NASA and many military projects innovation by mandate that were extremely successful?

It's quite one thing to form agencies with specific science and engeering goals (Manhatten Project, NASA) and populating them with experts and billions of dollars, quite another to expect the same results from other departments without that background.

And even then: the progress that SpaceX has made in the last few years is an almost text-book proof of my point. NASA provided SpaceX with a wealth of knowledge and experience that has been very poorly utilized (dollar for dollar) over the last 20 years. Within a very short time-frame we've suddenly seen innovation in the space sector like we haven't seen since the Apollo programme.

As for the military sector - given that maintaining a monopoly over the application of military force is (fundamentally) the primary function of government, it's not surprising that this is the one area of government that has understood it's place for a very long time: issuing contracts with stated operational aims and leaving the private sector to provide the innovation. Yes, the system is flawed - the F-35 programme is a bit of a disaster - but even then it can be at least partially blamed on government agencies interfering with the procurement process.

Re: Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

#82

Post by polemic »

djKianoosh wrote: post #77
polemic wrote: post #38

I'm reminded of this recent post by James Fee, talking about geodata, but I think it applies to the general case: "... The question was APIs or downloads... Personally, I believe [data] is one of the best ways for citizens to keep track of their government (local to federal) ... APIs tend to deliver what their “owners” want them to do. Raw data means everyone has an opportunity to check each other’s work. Of course,…

I think this is more about changing the mindset of the typical workers at the federal agencies (hundreds of thousands of whom are not doing IT related tasks as their primary function). Those of us who work for these agencies as programmers & IT people have a big job to do. Only recently have the govies started thinking about how their data can be useful to the general public. In the past everything had been stovepipe…

> Only recently have the govies started thinking about how their data can be useful to the general public

The problem is that they can't anticipate how their data is most useful. Release and let the users decide.

> But I hope one day, after many iterations of API building, we'll get to a point where the data truly is transparent.

So, we should wait many years while, predictably, large budgets are blown on faltering "government innovation" projects, when we could just have the data and use it today?

This just doesn't make sense!

Re: Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

#83

Post by rndmize »

polemic wrote: post #81
rndmize wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your use of the term technical innovation, but weren't the Manhattan Project, NASA and many military projects innovation by mandate that were extremely successful?

It's quite one thing to form agencies with specific science and engeering goals (Manhatten Project, NASA) and populating them with experts and billions of dollars, quite another to expect the same results from other departments without that background. And even then: the progress that SpaceX has made in the last few years is an almost text-book proof of my point. NASA provided SpaceX with a wealth of knowledge and ex…

Yes, but it doesn't take lots of experts and billions of dollars to build an API, I would think.

And yes, we've seen tremendous innovation from SpaceX - but where would they be without that knowledge and experience from NASA? Just because NASA has been turned into a bureaucratic mess with funding that bounces around doesn't mean they haven't created a lot of value and new knowledge, most of which would never have been funded by the private sector. Government work isn't about having good returns on money spent, which strikes me as both a blessing and a curse.

I wonder how many current day innovations have sprung from the initial work of places like the DOE National Labs, and how many might in the future, for all that it's a government program.

Re: Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

#84

Post by polemic »

rndmize wrote: post #83
polemic wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite one thing to form agencies with specific science and engeering goals (Manhatten Project, NASA) and populating them with experts and billions of dollars, quite another to expect the same results from other departments without that background. And even then: the progress that SpaceX has made in the last few years is an almost text-book proof of my point. NASA provided SpaceX with a wealth of knowledge and ex…

Yes, but it doesn't take lots of experts and billions of dollars to build an API, I would think. And yes, we've seen tremendous innovation from SpaceX - but where would they be without that knowledge and experience from NASA? Just because NASA has been turned into a bureaucratic mess with funding that bounces around doesn't mean they haven't created a lot of value and new knowledge, most of which would never have bee…

> Yes, but it doesn't take lots of experts and billions of dollars to build an API, I would think.

Refer (3) in my original top post. This is something they would prove remarkably adept at achieving.

> ...but where would they be without that knowledge and experience from NASA?

Exactly! A thousand times so! Releasing their knowledge and experience that only a government funded entity could have amassed (c.f. raw data), has sling-shot a private enterprise capable of rapid innovation. This is precisely why I think that releasing the raw data is the most beneficial outcome.

Re: Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

#85

Post by jlarocco »

pmb wrote: post #47
pwg wrote: post #29

This seems quite relevant now: http://xkcd.com/927/ What will this bring? Well, the US govt has X agencies. The result of this decree will be that, within 12 months, all of the public will get to enjoy the thrills of having X incompatible web API's, one unique one per agency.

Better than it is now, where none of that data is available except possibly through FOIA lawsuits.

That hasn't been true in my experience.

What data are you looking for that isn't available?

The only thing I can think of that's difficult to get is some law enforcement, military and "national security" related information, but APIs aren't going to change that.

I don't have a ton of experience with it (mostly USGS and NOAA), but the Department of Commerce and the Department of Interior both make a ton of data available.

Re: Barack Obama Directs All Federal Agencies to Have an API

#87

Post by djKianoosh »

polemic wrote: post #82
djKianoosh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is more about changing the mindset of the typical workers at the federal agencies (hundreds of thousands of whom are not doing IT related tasks as their primary function). Those of us who work for these agencies as programmers & IT people have a big job to do. Only recently have the govies started thinking about how their data can be useful to the general public. In the past everything had been stovepipe…

> Only recently have the govies started thinking about how their data can be useful to the general public The problem is that they can't anticipate how their data is most useful. Release and let the users decide. > But I hope one day, after many iterations of API building, we'll get to a point where the data truly is transparent. So, we should wait many years while, predictably, large budgets are blown on faltering "…

LOL I think we both want the same thing. I'm just being realistic. I highly doubt you'll get all the data you really want, this year or next. Federal agencies have a hard time releasing data quickly. Too many checks and balances, too many people blocking, too many lawyers and unions, too many politicians.
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