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60 kHz (2022)

ben.page

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Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#81
I have a friend with a 300' longwire antenna. A few weeks ago, after we were done repairing an old receiver that included VLF, he tuned in WWVB for me... checking it off my bucket list. It was interesting to hear the beeps of different lengths.

It came in surprisingly clear, in our Chicago suburb, especially since this was after the antenna issue on their end.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#82
post #13

It's kind of baffling that in 2024 there are appliances that exist for which I have to manually set the time, or at least have to go through some cumbersome IoT set-up process, that most likely is absolute garbage security-wise if it isn't actively acting against my interests (like those fridges that only work with first-party water filters). Maybe I'm under-thinking this, but couldn't my Wi-Fi router just broadcast…

NTP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol) can be run on any OpenWRT router. Too bad it isn't a standard feature of every router and appliance.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#83
post #75
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we have something like an AM broadcast, but then the receiver “upsampling” the data? Maybe using some ML? For example, if you have an AM channel that always transmits some song from a list, then you might not even need to receive the whole song. Or maybe you can have a model that’s good at upsampling those types of songs/data?

This is pretty much what audio compression, like a MP3 file, does: it figures out how to encode perceptually-identical (or close) stuff more densely and remove redundant information. Every time you listen to "HD Radio" you're doing exactly this.

Yes, but modern ML techniques (particularly with neural networks) are much more impressive at recovering signal with even less information than things like MP3. An example of this in the visual domain is upscaling. So it’s not a bad question at all.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#84
post #80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AM broadcast uses a "band" around the carrier. Whatever tricks you use Shannon's law is going to determine the upper limit of how much data you can carry which depends on the bandwidth and the signal to noise ratio. ML makes no difference from a theoretical perspective. Compression just reduces the bandwidth you'll need assuming your data compresses (with whatever method you choose, ML can be part of that)...

I guess my usual experience is that AM transmissions sound pretty horrible, especially compared to FM So, my question is more like, can we just upgrade the equipment and keep the channels? And can AM be used more like for signal/indexing rather than full data dump? (eg. instead of transmitting the whole song, transmitting just an id of the song)

AM sounds bad because it’s amplitude modulated. So variation in amplitude (i.e. signal strength) results in noise when decoding. FM however is not sensitive to this issue because its frequency modulated - slight variations in signal strength have no effect on the encoded signal.

And yes, we can always upgrade the equipment. That’s what we did when we transitioned TV to digital signals and FM to digital FM - we reserved some bandwidth for over-the-air while freeing up the rest to be used for other purposes. But it’s an expensive proposition and one that happens rarely (in fact those are the only two times I’m aware of it, they happened at basically the same time, took forever, & there was insane opposition to it).

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#85
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the equivalent European signal I'm familiar with only covers a single timezone, with unified DST rules, I'm curious: Do these usually have an adjustment button for a time zone offset? And how do they handle DST – do they have an "I'm in Arizona (but not in the Navajo Nation), leave me on standard time" switch?

They usually have an offset and a DST option. So in Arizona you'd choose -7/Off, and never touch it again. In Colorado you'll have to toggle DST twice a year manually, because it doesn't know the rules for when it starts/ends.

You shouldn't have to toggle DST manually; it's encoded at :57-58.

That said, my clock stopped syncing for some reason, so ...

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#86
I wear a Citizen “AT” [1] wristwatch daily. It not only keeps perfect time, because of its daily sync at 2am to WWVB, but it also never needs a battery change since it self charges from light. These two features make it the perfect zero maintenance timepiece IMHO, and it looks stylish too.

[1] https://www.citizenwatch.com/us/en/collection/mens-atomic-ti...

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#87
post #80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AM broadcast uses a "band" around the carrier. Whatever tricks you use Shannon's law is going to determine the upper limit of how much data you can carry which depends on the bandwidth and the signal to noise ratio. ML makes no difference from a theoretical perspective. Compression just reduces the bandwidth you'll need assuming your data compresses (with whatever method you choose, ML can be part of that)...

I guess my usual experience is that AM transmissions sound pretty horrible, especially compared to FM So, my question is more like, can we just upgrade the equipment and keep the channels? And can AM be used more like for signal/indexing rather than full data dump? (eg. instead of transmitting the whole song, transmitting just an id of the song)

The limit is Shannon's law which depends on bandwidth and signal to noise. A more advanced modulation technique can get more "information" through up to that limit. A song for this matter can just be considered information as well. So the answer is almost certainly yes, one can get more out of existing channels by upgrading the equipment assuming the current equipment doesn't approach the theoretical limit which is almost certainly the case for this "old" technology we're talking about.

An FM radio channel has a bandwidth of 200Khz. AM radio has a bandwidth of of 10Khz. That's a big part of the reason why AM sounds horrible compared to FM. The way noise impacts AM and FM is also different, especially given human perception. IIRC both these methods were picked for practical reasons not necessarily any optimal criteria. AM is fairly crude, there's only so much you can change the amplitude for any practical purpose. Changing the frequency makes it easier to use more bandwidth so it was a natural evolution. Depending on how you're modulating the amplitude (the naive old school radio IIRC is just using the signal you're transmitting to modulate it) you can make the bandwidth larger or smaller. Random e.g. something like Ethernet on copper can be viewed as a very very fast, high bandwidth, AM. All these things boil down to the same Shannon law just with somewhat different efficiencies depending on how well you can control the frequency domain.

This problem of cramming the most bits into a given channel is something people have been working on for a long time. Some coverage of this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation

That's how we got from 300bps modems to 56k modems over the same phone lines way back and how we push more out of radio spectrum today.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#89
post #11
post #6

the bandwidth is just enough to broadcast a single digit of binary every second. I'd be interested in some more context on this. I think it's pretty clear that you can encode more than 1bps in a 60kHz signal, but I'm curious how the encoding was chosen. There's some more detail on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB#Modulation_format The WWVB 60 kHz carrier, which has a normal ERP of 70 kW, is reduced in powe…

Relays maybe? EDIT: Not sure why I was downvoted. Relays seem like period-accurate technology (happy to be corrected), and they’re comparably slow.

I can't say why you were downvoted but that's still pretty slow for relays.

One bit per second seems more like it's aimed at casual human decoding. Especially because each digit is encoded separately, even for the hours. Also for plain old range purposes, one transmission per minute is about as wide as you can go before things get silly.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#90
60 kHz is “long wave”, a frequency so low you could almost still hear. It's just thrice the upper limit of ~20 kHz for the human ear.

I love how my wristwatch eats sunlight at day (solar-powered) and drinks radio waves at night. Never has to change a battery and shows time as accurately as any internet-connected device that listens to NTP.

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