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'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

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Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#81

Post by roughly »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #60
roughly wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of this is that productivity does not go down in a 4 day workweek and retention goes up. As an employer, you get the same amount of output, happier employees, and better retention. Everyone says they’re a data driven business until the data tells them something they don’t believe.

One thing I learned working at a desk next to some marketing agency people is, if neither you nor your customer understand statistics, the data will just tell the story that makes both of you happy, and that keeps the money flowing.

And it does those two things in exactly that order, too. The myth of the rational actor is exactly that.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#82

Post by Shaanie »

kettleballroll wrote: post #66
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems you think that a 4 day work week is paid as 5 is currently. Cost of living doesn't magically drop 20% just because you're not working that 5th day.

But the amount of work you're able to do is. And companies need to make money, they're not s charity. I took a 20% paycut to work only 4 days a week. And I think that is fair, because my output definitely did decrease by 20%. This might not be true for everyone, but all of the "working more efficiently" thing doesn't really help you if you were already working pretty efficiently 5 days a week.

I kinda doubt your output decreased by 20%. Probably fairly close to it, but I'm guessing you got slightly more done on the other days.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#83

Post by t-writescode »

dexwiz wrote: post #31
firefoxd wrote: post #21

Last Sunday, I was walking down the street with my kids when a man bumped into me trying to cross the street. He turned around to apologize and we had a discussion at the red light. He was working a 12 hour shift and was now on his break which he had to rush to get to the store. He said memorial weekend was extremely busy. "After that we will go back to regular busy." When we talk about 4 day workweek, it's for some…

4 day work weeks will be for the elite. While those in service jobs will probably end up with two 30 hour a week jobs. The definition for full time won’t change, but skilled workers will get full time benefits at 32 hours, everyone else will continue to get screwed. It’s kind of like unlimited PTO. It sounds good on paper but some people will receive outsized benefits compared to others.

It doesn't __have__ to be this way. We have had record profits across most of the industries were workers are the most abused. We could legislate their lives better and treated with more respect.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#84

Post by Roark66 »

Yes, 4 day work week... Especially for contractors that are paid by the day (and the amount of work to be done stays the same).

I'd love a 4 day week if the daily rate went up so the pay doesn't change. Somehow I'm not holding my breath.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#85

Post by Xenoamorphous »

I find it odd that everyone here is talking about productivity. Although I guess it's to be expected since posts about increasing productivity are popular in HN; lots of people here focusing on their careers I suppose.

Personally I find we work way too many hours. We spend the good part of 5 days a week (if we're lucky) at work, often literally all the daylight hours, at least in winter. I have to take my daughter very early in the morning to the nursery, then I can't see her until the evening.

I want to believe that future generations will look back and find this unconceivable, and I hope AI shows us the way.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#86

Post by vasco »

Shaanie wrote: post #80
kettleballroll wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire point of this is that productivity does not go down in a 4 day workweek Just an anecdote, but: my productivity definitely took a huge hit when I reduced my hours to 4days/week. All of the "working harder/more efficiently/more focused" doesn't help if you already worked hard/efficiently/focused. If you have a job with a lot of slack/downtime/waiting time... Sure. But sometimes, working 20% less means that…

It's the same as working from home. Some people are way more productive at home, away from all the distractions in the office. Others barely get any work done at all at home. Most people are nowhere close to working fully focused 8 hours a day, and may also benefit from more time to recharge. Others benefit less. The average probably matters more for the company (also shorter work hours will improve retention, or all…

It's nowhere near the same. Changing locations is a minimal effect compared to working a full day more than another person. There are many jobs where hours worked are almost equivalent to work performed. Think of any manager spending their week interviewing candidates for hiring. One less day means less candidates interviewed.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#87

Post by t-writescode »

nprateem wrote: post #64
zolbrek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine has this at her workplace and she loves it. She works 9 hours a day Monday through Thursday which at 36 hours isn't that far off from the 40 hours I put in over 5 days. I think anything beyond that starts to get ridiculous. Imagine working 11 to 12 hours a day for a three day work week, seems like that would just result in a lot of foot dragging to me.

But why should we work 36-40 hour weeks? I'm only productive for about 5 hours per day of concentrated thought.

Some jobs are thinking jobs, like software, accounting, screenwriting, basically the "creating for the first time" jobs.

Some jobs are rote work jobs - manufacturing jobs, warehousing jobs, etc.

Some jobs are butts-in-seats jobs, where you need a person physically there to "do the thing" - these are your customer-facing jobs. Your customer support, your banking teller jobs, etc.

Each of these jobs has a comfortable "max amount of continuous" work time for different people. Since I can speak to it, in software, I'm only productive 4-6 hours a day with the rare day I enter obscene levels of flow and disappear for like 9 hours. I imagine many of the creative jobs are similar.

I suppose the implications for 3-4 day, 'very high hour count' work week, in general* is one of the positions that can handle operating in the specific way they need to work for that long.

* I understand that nursing is a 3-12's job. There's special details that make that the way it is - I think it has to do with nurse-patient changeover? I dunno, very outside my field.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#88

Post by t-writescode »

antisthenes wrote: post #5
tsunamifury wrote: post #2

Frankly after the pandemic aren’t we all going to learn humans can’t work all day and consume nothing. They need enough free time to actually buy and experience all this stuff we are toiling to create.

What does the pandemic have to do with it? Working so much that you can't spend the money was absolutely a thing before the pandemic too.

The pandemic gave a large number of people a vision of what __could__ be rather than what is, and those that have tasted freedom and goodness don't want to be caged in the exact ways they have been caged before.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#89

Post by marcus_holmes »

When I was nomadding around SE Asia, I worked 5 hours a day, 6 days a week (so I had time to do all the cool stuff in the places I was travelling through). That worked really well - I was at least as productive as I normally am in a standard 40-hour week.

A decade ago I was working 5 days a week from an open-plan office, and mentally clocked out around 2pm each day. Office culture meant I was just moistening a chair from then until it was acceptable to leave around 6pm.

For the last few years I've been working 35-45 hour weeks from home, especially during COVID, and that was fine productivity-speaking.

I'm currently working 4 days from a co-working space, and 1 day from home. I know my productivity drops when I'm at home, but I'm not sure why this changed in the last year or so.

I think a 4-day week would probably work well for me at the moment. But I'm not sure - I could end up with Tuesdays looking a lot like Mondays do at the moment. Or the extra day to do all the other stuff would be amazing and I'd really focus on the other four days. shrug

Developer productivity is a strange beast. Can't measure it. Can't control it directly. I know it when I see it, but I couldn't explain why or how.

Re: 'It's better for humans in general': The 4-day workweek is closer than you think

#90

Post by t-writescode »

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #85

I find it odd that everyone here is talking about productivity. Although I guess it's to be expected since posts about increasing productivity are popular in HN; lots of people here focusing on their careers I suppose. Personally I find we work way too many hours. We spend the good part of 5 days a week (if we're lucky) at work, often literally all the daylight hours, at least in winter. I have to take my daughter ve…

I think you're right - the average person absolutely works more hours than is healthy or most beneficial to the true, human experience.

I would bet many people agree with you, too! Even many people in these threads.

I think what you may be seeing (I'm speaking for myself, I suppose?) is people who've thought about it for a long while, and we have to think about it in ways we can introduce and fight for that stance with our bosses, or with our shareholders, etc, since those are the people we have to convince, not the people in the trenches doing the work.

For myself, I have to operate as both my boss - trying to make enough money to continue or elevate my desired way of life - and myself the person - trying to live life to the most joyful and fullest.

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