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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#81

Post by runarberg »

dlubarov wrote: post #79
stanfordkid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It’s absurd to draw the line into ancient history of Arab’s colonizing the Levant. Early 1900s to 1948 are more reasonable given that people actually exist that lived in this time or at least meaningful records of history. The fact is the British/UN gave a bunch of land to people that wasn’t really theirs to give. Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) which was already a mass geno…

> Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) This is very inaccurate, the actual law is described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Law#Provisions

> 4. Referring to the Israeli Independence Day or the founding day of the country as a day of mourning.

So you are not allowed to call it the Nakba, or describe it as anything but something to celebrate as long as you receive funding from the government.

I don’t know how the media, libraries, schools or other institutions work in Israel, but in Iceland this would pretty much amount to a ban, as almost all media, and institutions receive at least some funding from the government, and the most important ones actually depend on it.

I also find it curious how this flies in Israel’s participation in Eurovision. Russia was banned for using state media to spread misinformation. Meanwhile Israel has laws which bans their state media from recognizing previous state atrocities, and is not banned.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#82

Post by dlubarov »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #37
aen1 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Those warnings are rarely given, and also warning someone that you're about to bomb their home and store and hospital and aid and aid workers, doesn't justify the crime of doing those things. If all innocent civilians are equal, then it's not acceptable to kill 35,000 Palestinian ones to avenge As for "sympathizers": someone disagreeing with you doesn't justify exploding them, either.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#83

Post by surfingdino »

mardifoufs wrote: post #80
surfingdino wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Wait is that a statement in support of Hamas? Or is it just unethical actions from Palestinians that get that treatment? Otherwise wouldn't an occupation followed by a blockade count as an unethical action that doesn't merit an ethical response?

The day ICJ goes after the political and financial supporters of Hamas and orders Hamas to stop using the people of Palestine as live shields to bear the brunt of the Israeli wrath will be the day when I will agree with the ICJ.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#84

Post by mardifoufs »

surfingdino wrote: post #83
mardifoufs wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait is that a statement in support of Hamas? Or is it just unethical actions from Palestinians that get that treatment? Otherwise wouldn't an occupation followed by a blockade count as an unethical action that doesn't merit an ethical response?

The day ICJ goes after the political and financial supporters of Hamas and orders Hamas to stop using the people of Palestine as live shields to bear the brunt of the Israeli wrath will be the day when I will agree with the ICJ.

Mhmm that sure sounds like whatboutism though. Also, Hamas is literally sanctioned by most of the western hemisphere. I guess the day Israel gets any consequence (and I mean any, even a single official condemnation and sanction) from the west, is the day that I'd agree that the ICJ should focus on the other side.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#85

Post by dlubarov »

runarberg wrote: post #81
dlubarov wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) This is very inaccurate, the actual law is described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Law#Provisions

> 4. Referring to the Israeli Independence Day or the founding day of the country as a day of mourning. So you are not allowed to call it the Nakba, or describe it as anything but something to celebrate as long as you receive funding from the government. I don’t know how the media, libraries, schools or other institutions work in Israel, but in Iceland this would pretty much amount to a ban, as almost all media, and…

Your interpretation doesn't seem right. It is certainly permitted to use the word Nakba, and there's no requirement to celebrate anything.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#86

Post by dlubarov »

tsimionescu wrote: post #23
implements wrote: post #14

During the Falklands War there were discussions in British political circles about what death toll would be unacceptable to liberate 1,800 people from Argentine occupation and rule - a calculus on the value of human life vs geopolitical concerns, I guess. The global consensus seems to be that Israel’s current actions have become excessive - if that’s true, I wonder where the line between legitimate and illegitimate r…

This is a somewhat complex question to answer, and one that can't truly be untangled from the broader history of the I/P conflict. But the base idea is this: you can't fight terrorism with bombs. Israel's stated goals in this war don't make sense: even if they could eliminate every single Hamas (military) operative, the kind of assault they are perpetrating is obviously going to give rise to a new wave of militants,…

> They would have had to work with the non-militant parts of Hamas leadership and the PLO of the West Bank and with neighboring Arab countries to bring these murderers to justice

I don't really see how this could work? As far as I know, all Hamas leadership supports the Oct 7 attack. The PLO and neighboring Arab countries don't really have power in Gaza.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#87

Post by oliwarner »

implements wrote: post #14

During the Falklands War there were discussions in British political circles about what death toll would be unacceptable to liberate 1,800 people from Argentine occupation and rule - a calculus on the value of human life vs geopolitical concerns, I guess. The global consensus seems to be that Israel’s current actions have become excessive - if that’s true, I wonder where the line between legitimate and illegitimate r…

The Falklands death toll was around 900 people, only three of whom were non-combatants.

The situation with Gaza is very different. There aren't perfect answers, and fifty years of being kettled under military occupation has only made everyone involved hate each other that little bit more.

Whatever the exact numbers are, it's clear that normal people have suffered unduly as a result of military action, in a way that has extended far past self defence, with documented actions that seem barely human.

A comparison to the Falklands war —as unnecessary as that was— seems perverse.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#88

Post by runarberg »

dlubarov wrote: post #82
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those warnings are rarely given, and also warning someone that you're about to bomb their home and store and hospital and aid and aid workers, doesn't justify the crime of doing those things. If all innocent civilians are equal, then it's not acceptable to kill 35,000 Palestinian ones to avenge As for "sympathizers": someone disagreeing with you doesn't justify exploding them, either.

[flagged]

These allegations of Hamas violations of international humanitarian laws—even if true—does not devalue the lives of Palestinians, nor does it give Israel an excuse for further violations.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#89

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

dlubarov wrote: post #82
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those warnings are rarely given, and also warning someone that you're about to bomb their home and store and hospital and aid and aid workers, doesn't justify the crime of doing those things. If all innocent civilians are equal, then it's not acceptable to kill 35,000 Palestinian ones to avenge As for "sympathizers": someone disagreeing with you doesn't justify exploding them, either.

[flagged]

That may be so, but I doubt it, this was Hamas's most successful attack in history, and will never happen again, with or without Israel's genocide of unrelated Palestinians. The claim that Israel definitively saved >35,000 lives by killing as many, is simply implausible. And that's to say nothing of the denial of (and attacking of) supplies.

Having said that, none if it justifies the crimes or racial discrimination I mentioned above. As I said: If all innocent civilians are equal, then it's not acceptable to kill 35,000 Palestinian ones to avenge ——>even to prevent another That math makes no sense from the outside perspective, unless one discriminates based on race, or otherwise believes Israel civilians are somehow more valuable than Palestinian civilians.

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