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Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

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Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#81

Post by pdimitar »

bitcharmer wrote: post #73
pdimitar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sad but realistical take, I'm very surprised you haven't been flagged yet. Many people on social media, even HN tend to outright deny statistical data, call their opponents racists and shut down the whole discourse.

Well, maybe the tide is turning. HN is usually left-leaning but I'd think after a number of hard-to-deny realities people might change their views.

That, or the thread is too big and I haven't been detected yet. :D

But even if I eat 1000 down arrows, I would not change my mind. What I said is pretty visible and there would be a lot of mental gymnastics necessary for it to be denied.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#82

Post by mytailorisrich »

arp242 wrote: post #77
mytailorisrich wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The topic has not been " hijacked by right-wing firebrands ". It's just that they are the only ones still raising the issue openly. Somehow the mainstream parties and especially the left have shifted from anti-racism to a blanket and absolute " immigration is good " and " all refugees welcome " consensus (and not only that but in some cases a stance that more diveristy should actually be encouraged) and anyone raisin…

So let's stick with Netherlands: if you want to literally ban a religion (Wilders) then you're a right-wing firebrand. If you subscribe to all sort of outlandish conspiracy theories (Baudet) then you're a right-wing firebrand (and also completely insane). These people are not helpful for any constructive debate. And by and large it's not like centre- or even left-wing parties are in favour of "all refugees welcome" o…

If we look at the facts and the numbers it is de facto what I wrote in my previous comment, though. There is no effective restriction on either so the logical conclusion is that it is indeed the case.

If I take the example of the UK: arguably right-wing government for 14 years with grass root Conservative backers against immigration. Well, last year the UK had the highest legal immigration on record.

Considering the popularity of Wilders in the Netherlands perhaps the government did not actually do anything to limit non-EU immigration, either...

If the people feel taken for a ride this cannot end well.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#83

Post by trueismywork »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #66
trueismywork wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel a lot of this comes from a big resistance to change. Germany tries to take in all immigrants and make them fully German without any trace of their original culture (not socially, but economics wise etc). And that creates huge tension. In my mind, Germany needs to decide which of those various aspects of culture are important and then focus on them, and allow for diversity in other parts.

But why should they change? Ultimately immigrants need to assimilate. Maybe not the first generation but the second generation should be assimilated. People always talk about integration but that's easy. Assimilation is the harder goal. This highlights the key, difficult issue with immigration into Europe: people from vastly different cultures and religion who don't assimilate even in some cases at the third generati…

There are different levels of assimilation:

1. Gender equality : probably very high on list of desirable qualities in assimilation

2. Language : may be somewhere in middle

3. Being required to Celebrate Christmas in kindergarten : even lower I say and may be counterproductive

Not all sides of assimilation are same. With Germany, it seems like it's all or nothing though. The debate is poisoned because no one is listening to the other side. One side says, "why should we change?" And other side say, "well, why should we?" And nothing goes anywhere.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#84

Post by trueismywork »

snowpid wrote: post #54
trueismywork wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is a much more attractive language to learn than Dutch especially if you don't know if you're going to stay in that country for a long time. So, such expectations create bias towards people with already a solid footing in the country.

So the Netherlands might not be the best option for you. Maybe try UK or Canada or US :)

And you see that happening where US remains more attractive destination for highly skilled people and Europe remains attractive for people who are willing to invest that much time for whatever reason (choice or necessity). And you see that in quality of immigration and then people wonder why they don't get economically beneficial immigrants..

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#85

Post by mytailorisrich »

trueismywork wrote: post #83
mytailorisrich wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why should they change? Ultimately immigrants need to assimilate. Maybe not the first generation but the second generation should be assimilated. People always talk about integration but that's easy. Assimilation is the harder goal. This highlights the key, difficult issue with immigration into Europe: people from vastly different cultures and religion who don't assimilate even in some cases at the third generati…

There are different levels of assimilation: 1. Gender equality : probably very high on list of desirable qualities in assimilation 2. Language : may be somewhere in middle 3. Being required to Celebrate Christmas in kindergarten : even lower I say and may be counterproductive Not all sides of assimilation are same. With Germany, it seems like it's all or nothing though. The debate is poisoned because no one is listen…

No, there are no "different levels of assimilation", by definition.

Language is a basic requirement for integration, by the way, way before assimilation.

I think your last sentence misses the point that there is no obligation to accept immigrants and that the host country is sovereignly free to accept or reject anyone they wish.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#86

Post by trueismywork »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #85
trueismywork wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different levels of assimilation: 1. Gender equality : probably very high on list of desirable qualities in assimilation 2. Language : may be somewhere in middle 3. Being required to Celebrate Christmas in kindergarten : even lower I say and may be counterproductive Not all sides of assimilation are same. With Germany, it seems like it's all or nothing though. The debate is poisoned because no one is listen…

No, there are no "different levels of assimilation", by definition. Language is a basic requirement for integration, by the way, way before assimilation. I think your last sentence misses the point that there is no obligation to accept immigrants and that the host country is sovereignly free to accept or reject anyone they wish.

Thats what OP was saying though, if countries want assimilation to that high of a degree, they should encode it in a law. Otherwise, they are being duplicitous by inviting skilled workers on one hand and then creating structures which drive them away.

For example, there can be a legal requirement to have a B2 level of German within 3 years of being in country, if the requirement is so important.

Right now, the policies say one thing and politics say another.

P.S. : the real reason such a law would never exist is because it would drive a huge amount of skilled immigration away and this is something also politicians cannot afford.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#87

Post by lr1970 »

yurishimo wrote: post #13

I certainly understand the sentiment, but my question to someone on the "anti" immigration side would be this: what do you see as a possible alternative solution? Populations are shrinking and to keep the economy in a healthy place, money needs to come from somewhere. The easiest solution is to add bodies via immigration. Otherwise taxes need to go up or governments need to spend money incentivizing people to start f…

> I certainly understand the sentiment, but my question to someone on the "anti" immigration side would be this: what do you see as a possible alternative solution?

Most people are not against immigration per se, they are against uncontrolled immigration of undocumented aliens. A legal and orderly immigration process is the way to go for Europe. In fact this route existed for many years but recently it takes a back seat to simply running over the border. Europe need to scale it up and actually allow for more legal immigration.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#88

Post by snowpid »

trueismywork wrote: post #84
snowpid wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Netherlands might not be the best option for you. Maybe try UK or Canada or US :)

And you see that happening where US remains more attractive destination for highly skilled people and Europe remains attractive for people who are willing to invest that much time for whatever reason (choice or necessity). And you see that in quality of immigration and then people wonder why they don't get economically beneficial immigrants..

They do. According to State of European Tech 2023 Europe is a net importer of Global Talent.

btw It is also absolutely personally a net win to invest in a new language or a new culture.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#89

Post by snowpid »

racional wrote: post #80
snowpid wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Should applicants for citizenship to Germany be required to sign a written statement "acknowledging the right of Russia to exist"? Or the People's Republic of China, say? " There are not many people denying Russia or Chinese to make a state? And definitely there was no genocide to them. "in that it denies the right of Orthodox Jews" a small group of Orthodox Jews, seeing as weirdos among other Jews. " You may now t…

So it's okay to silence this segment of the Jewish population, and deny them citizenship rights in Germany (of all places) if they are "seen as weirdos among other Jews"? That's what you're advocating, apparently.

This is just a rare edge case I guess it is worth ignoring it.

Also on the topic of Antisemitism I " trust " the local Jewish organisations and their opinion more than some stranger on HN.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#90

Post by Gud »

alephnerd wrote: post #42

It's interesting seeing non-immigrants on HN trying to extrapolate immigrant choices as to why they move where they do, and by interesting I mean very reductive and insulting. I'm the child of immigrants, and my family decided to move to the US over Western Europe or Singapore specifically because the opportunities are greater and Americans are way more open-minded about immigrants mixing their home culture with thei…

You don’t speak for every migrant. Interestingly, you yourself aren’t even an immigrant but your parents are! So I guess by your own logic your whole post is “reductive and insulting”?

Full disclosure, I’m an immigrant myself, I travel a lot for work and stay for prolonged periods.

There are as many reasons to migrate as there are migrants… myself, I would never wish to live in the US but am very happy to live in Switzerland.

Your tier list is completely whack, there is no way I would list the UK above Western Europe. I have spent 18+ months in the UK last five years.

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