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VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

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Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#81

I know this is an against the grain (for HN at least) take, but I don't disagree. If you're not working on, or supporting, the company's product, you MAY have a BS job. Good example: Twitter, which functioned well after layoffs of 80% or so (the owner's persona has damaged the revenue and reputation extensively, but the product itself has been fine). They're maybe the boldest, but hardly the only company in the past…

Anecdotal-ish evidence but it does not seem like Twitter is functioning nearly as well as it used to: https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitter/search/?q=broken&sort=relev...

Possibly but couldn't that be attributed to confirmation bias? It's not like Twitter was bug-free when they were still 7500 employees strong.

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a real industry-wide hiring glut leading up to this. Once the market changed, a lot of companies had more people than they knew what to do with.

Yeah, but the glut was used for something. And that something was management mandated projects. All successful Google projects were bottom-up ideas or acquisitions, with management usually fighting it as much as they can, because that's what management does. Management isn't involved in actual functioning of the company, just in how it's organized. And of course, their main skill always turns out to be "organizing" i…

> Management is really good at keeping themselves in a job, and don't care about sacrificing the bottom.

Engineers are also good at explaining why their system or feature needs to be three times more complex than it really needs to be. Or why last year's tool or framework needs to be replaced with a new one. As an engineer I've seen this bullshit my whole career.

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal-ish evidence but it does not seem like Twitter is functioning nearly as well as it used to: https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitter/search/?q=broken&sort=relev...

Possibly but couldn't that be attributed to confirmation bias? It's not like Twitter was bug-free when they were still 7500 employees strong.

Yeah sure, as I said it’s basically anecdotal data nothing I would say perfectly proves any particular point. Still it’s more evidence than the original comment provided to support their statement

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but the glut was used for something. And that something was management mandated projects. All successful Google projects were bottom-up ideas or acquisitions, with management usually fighting it as much as they can, because that's what management does. Management isn't involved in actual functioning of the company, just in how it's organized. And of course, their main skill always turns out to be "organizing" i…

> Management is really good at keeping themselves in a job, and don't care about sacrificing the bottom. Engineers are also good at explaining why their system or feature needs to be three times more complex than it really needs to be. Or why last year's tool or framework needs to be replaced with a new one. As an engineer I've seen this bullshit my whole career.

With no incoming work, we SWEs will make ourselves "100% utilized" just rearranging things. We might be sincerely trying to clean up the software, but still, it'll never end until you give us a real task.

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#85
I think there’s a distinction to be made between people who are working on stuff that doesn’t end up providing any benefit to the company to the company and people who are straight up not burning any calories.

When I worked in big tech, I spent a lot of time working on stuff that didn’t ship, or shipped but never got traction, which ended up providing no benefit to the company. This is IMO largely the responsibility of management, although there’s certainly an idea that line workers have a responsibility to find impactful projects/teams to work on.

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#86

There's a few types of "non workers" I've encountered, that for all extents and purposes are worthless .... until they very much aren't. 1. "former" engineers and non-specialists - they tend to sit in meetings, try to sound important, pontificate about "better ways" but never seem to do real work. Then when SHTF they seem to have all the knowledge to make the problem go away super fast. Maybe SHTF never happens to yo…

There are any number of organisations and organisational functions which are essentially risk management. Some of those risks are upside (new products / markets), some are downside (loss, fraud, moat-building, etc.).

You'd expect that a VC of all people would appreciate the fact that in high-tech spaces, many new ventures are required to find one unicorn, with absolute failure rates of about 90%,[1] and Angellist giving 1:40 odds (2.5%) likelihood of seed-stage startups reaching US$1b valuation ("unicorn").[2]

Google has hit paydirt once with advertising, and spent most of its subsequent life either reinforcing that status (with varying levels of legality) or seeking out alternative hits, with ... stunningly little success. But then, nobody else has had any real success there either, save Facebook.

There are also the roles within organisations which are principally risk mitigation. I had the insight a few years back that ops is essentially a risk-management role.[3] In one of my earlier mentions of this on HN someone responded that that is in fact how Google treats its SRE role, and is a point emphasised in its fairly well-known book on the topic.

Another point that's become glaringly clear over the past few years is that efficiency and resilience are contrasting points on the optimisation space. I'm not sure if that's one-dimensional or multi (think "fast, cheap, good"), but it does have multiple optima depending on the specified criteria.

And ... in some spaces, notably pharmaceuticals (very large search space, very high search costs, long-term exploration), a business model which has emerged is to spin out new-molecule / treatment development indepenently of the majors (Pfizer, J&J, Roche, Novartis, Merck, AstrZeneca, GSK, etc.), either as controlled subsidiaries or independent ventures, and then aquire the successes. Contrast other R&D-heavy models such as 3M, Edison Mfg. Co., DuPont, etc. There's also the hit-factory / tentpole model of film, music,[4] and print (a small number of hits supports a much larger mid-list). I'd argue that much of the start-up and established-firm tech space has come to resemble these models, for much the same underlying dynamic logic.

--------------------------------

Notes:

1. https://explodingtopics.com/blog/startup-failure-stats> https://www.luisazhou.com/blog/startup-failure-statistics/>

2. https://web.archive.org/web/20210716175009/https://www.angel...>

3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27701929>, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152832>, and https://archive.is/HknlO>

4. I've discussed this and referenced Charles Perrow's excellent treatment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31254795>. Perrow's discussion is in Complex Organizations (1972, 1985), pp. 186--187. https://archive.org/search.php?query=Complex+organizations+:...>

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#87

One time I saw a high-paid google engineer stocking a fridge in the hallway with drinks and snacks. A nearby office with accountants in it also saw this, and when I mentioned it they took it upon themselves to calculate exactly how much money it was costing the company for him to do that. It was $250/hr.

Thinking doesn't occur solely at one's workstation / laptop. Meditative physical operations can be conducive to thinking through problems.

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#88

What percentage of goggle engineers are: - Maintaining old stuff - Rewriting old stuff - Writing new stuff You can't do w/o most of the first, most of the second is a waste, and maybe a quarter of the last is worthwhile. I've always had the feeling google isn't filled with a lot of the first, as it's just not cool.

From everything I've heard it's less "not cool" and more "not valued by the Google promotion and advancement system".

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why retirement is relevant here. Company's duty is to its shareholders either way.

Agreed but in the case of retired people, that duty hits different. They don't have the ability to go back and earn more money; many are also in cognitive decline.

The duty to every share is the same, it's not really a consideration. It's not like Google has a separate "Greyglers" class of shares.

Re: VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'

#90

There's a few types of "non workers" I've encountered, that for all extents and purposes are worthless .... until they very much aren't. 1. "former" engineers and non-specialists - they tend to sit in meetings, try to sound important, pontificate about "better ways" but never seem to do real work. Then when SHTF they seem to have all the knowledge to make the problem go away super fast. Maybe SHTF never happens to yo…

> "Cut the fat" is a great corporate euphemism, but the biological analogy fails if there's a corporate version of "famine".

or you might say the culinary analogy turns into a biological analogy

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