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Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

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Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#81

Post by 8note »

koolba wrote: post #30
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what we need, yeah. I don't have a problem with binding arbitration if parties with equal leverage agree to it, but it should be flat out illegal to require it as terms of employment or part of ToS.

> … or part of ToS. Let’s forget employment for a sec and just look at a product’s terms. Why can’t you just not use the product? “It’s popular” is hardly an excuse for something new if you’re picking the platform. If it’s an existing community and you feel forced to join a closed system with too many rules for your tastes, skip it. The community will suffer and hopefully they change to something you’ll like. But if…

Discord is the sole distributor for products that they do not themselves, the conversations done by third parties.

If chat required interoperability like telephones do, this would not be an issue. The government has failed at making proper regulations

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#83

Post by MiguelX413 »

udev4096 wrote: post #80

It's really funny to see discord users suddenly caring about their "data". Makes me wonder if extreme examples are necessary for people to realize the need of privacy

Regardless, this doesn't have anything to do with data.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#84

Post by captainepoch »

misswaterfairy wrote: post #82

If you're looking for an open-source, self-hostable, end-to-end encrypted Discord alternative, check out Spacebar. Still in development, though is promising. https://github.com/spacebarchat/spacebarchat

You also have https://github.com/revoltchat, but people don't care about these alternatives, sadly.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#85

Post by udev4096 »

MiguelX413 wrote: post #83
udev4096 wrote: post #80

It's really funny to see discord users suddenly caring about their "data". Makes me wonder if extreme examples are necessary for people to realize the need of privacy

Regardless, this doesn't have anything to do with data.

It does, indirectly. The data gathered by some "discord scrapper" has to be somehow related to this arbitration. I refuse to believe otherwise

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#86

Post by olliej »

juped wrote: post #48
appplication wrote: post #29

As a consumer, I’m not sure I understand the disdain for forced arbitration. I understand discord desires it because it helps prevent rulings becoming case law. But I am going through forced arbitration right now in a personal lawsuit, and part of it is bleeding to a third party that does not arbitrate, which means real court. By all accounts I have been assured by my lawyer we are in a better position pursuing arbit…

Companies mostly want it because it's a lot cheaper to do discovery in an arbitration, actually. Some kind of unfavorable precedent is extreme tail risk because no matter what you're almost certainly going to settle, that isn't really a factor in legal department decisions. But real civil discovery is an extremely lengthy and expensive process.

No they want it because it stops class action lawsuits, arbitration is notorious for being biased in favor of the companies that pay them, and it removes your access to a jury trial (eg one where the judge is not being paid by your opponent).

The claim businesses make is that it is more efficient than court for people, but if that were actually the case then they would not need to constantly try to add forced arbitration.

Forced arbitration is only a win for the business, and the entire intent is to make it so that the amount of harm they have to do before it is worth anyone suing them has to be measured in thousands of dollars for any person. The only way corporations are held to account for the majority of their crime is through increasingly impossible class action lawsuits.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#88

Post by AdrianB1 »

fuomag9 wrote: post #43

Me in the EU: and nothing of value was lost (since I literally can’t lose my right to sue them) When is the USA going to realise that allowing companies to behave like this shouldn’t be allowed?

How do you sue them in Europe? Can you call the US entity in an European court or they have branches in Europe that you can sue?

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#89

Post by AdrianB1 »

lnauta wrote: post #22
lnxg33k1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure, I think it can't apply to Italy, as we have a tiered set of laws and one lower tier can't override higher tiers, and contracts/tos are the lowest tier

Not to be nitpicky but this message also talks of jury trial, which EU countries generally don't have.

Jury trial is a common form of the legal system in USA, but we have the equivalent here in Europe as regular court (no jury). The discussion is court vs. arbitration, not jury vs. something else. The same applies to Europe, if binding.

Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!

#90

Post by emacsen »

appplication wrote: post #29

As a consumer, I’m not sure I understand the disdain for forced arbitration. I understand discord desires it because it helps prevent rulings becoming case law. But I am going through forced arbitration right now in a personal lawsuit, and part of it is bleeding to a third party that does not arbitrate, which means real court. By all accounts I have been assured by my lawyer we are in a better position pursuing arbit…

As someone who has also been in an arbitration (though not forced), and had a generally decent outcome, I still understand why consumers dislike these policies.

Court is an essential part of government function that allows two parties to be judged fairly in a dispute. It's the great equalizer- at least in theory.

While the act of going to court with a lawyer is expensive, court itself is not expensive.

Moreover, court cases can be used as precedent for other court cases. Evidence found in one case can be used in another.

Arbitration works very differently.

Firstly, an arbitration clause may allow for the party with more "clout" to specify a less fair arbitration body. While the matter of arbitration fairness is complex, it's certainly not wild speculation that some bodies side more with some kinds of entities than others.

Secondly, arbitration requires up front payment. This can actually be a good thing for consumers in that it forces both parties to pay, but it costs a lot of money- thousands of dollars. Most people aren't going to spend that kind of money.

Thirdly, arbitration is not court, and findings in arbitration can't be used either in court, or in future arbitration cases. This provides an advantage to the big company, since they know what they might face, but each time a consumer goes after them, they're starting essentially from scratch!

Lastly, it precludes collective action. Each Discord user who feels wronged may not have the resources to arbitrate on their own, which is why the courts allow for class action lawsuits. Forced arbitration takes that option away.

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