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Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

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Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#81

Post by mid-kid »

hxelk1 wrote: post #62
kbar13 wrote: post #45

systemd has been a net positive for the linux ecosystem. remember when you had to write bash scripts to start, stop, restart services and handle any other signals you want to send it? nowadays it's a unit file (basically just an ini file) away with relatively straightforward API. and you can actually declare startup dependencies and other useful relationships past just "prepend a number signifying when it should run…

> you can actually declare startup dependencies and other useful relationships In theory, yes. In practice, I had a lot of trouble ordering things correctly in non-trivial cases. > it's quite annoying that the armchair linux experts complain about how "lol systemd is so stupid for reinventing the wheel, give me my shell scripts back" I can only speak for myself, but I don't want the abysmal sysvinit scripts back. I j…

In a similar vein, systems like openrc use "shell scripts" as well, but can generally be written declaratively[1]. This provides greater flexibility when it comes to creating one-shot services or services that require a little setup before running, as you can just re-define the start() function, rather than requiring one to make a separate shell script for it, or dependency tree, like you'd have to in systemd land.

"sysvinit" is an ill-defined concept, anyway, as every distribution had their own scripts and tooling around actual services, and sysvinit was generally only responsible for starting getty and launching the distribution's actual service system. How initscripts were created and how you managed them depended significantly on the distribution.

[1]: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/net-vpn/tails...

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#82

Post by dale_glass »

constantcrying wrote: post #78
dale_glass wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's poorly thought out about the init system? It's not perfect for sure, but on the whole I don't have any issues with it.

How much time have you spent writing and debugging systemd init files?

I've written a fair amount. Nothing much to debug in most of them.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#83

Post by constantcrying »

zokier wrote: post #79
constantcrying wrote: post #39

Why do they have to do this? This is really, really stupid. My issue isn't even that someone tries to replace sudo. That may or may not be a completely fine thing to do, depending on the state of sudo and what improvements can be made. But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system. There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo replaceme…

Instead of just hating based on assumptions it would be useful to actually familiarize with the thing you are critizising > But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system systemd is not init system, its and umbrella project for various core system components, which includes an init system. > There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo…

Half the people here tell me that systemd is great because it tries to create an integrated complete system, the other half tells me I can just pick and choose.

Obviously one of these groups is lying.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#84

Post by mid-kid »

mort96 wrote: post #19
pmlnr wrote: post #10

> The developer talks about the weaknesses of sudo, and how it has a large possible attack surface Poettering's hypocrisy is painful.

Is it? Does systemd's sudo replacement also have a lot of complex code running as root in a suid binary? Because that's what he's complaining about

systemd has a lot of complex code running as root (that can be reached without privileges more often than not) and has had its fair share of CVEs.

The hypocrisy is in calling out a different project for being an overengineered tool running with too high privileges.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#85

Post by pmlnr »

mort96 wrote: post #19
pmlnr wrote: post #10

> The developer talks about the weaknesses of sudo, and how it has a large possible attack surface Poettering's hypocrisy is painful.

Is it? Does systemd's sudo replacement also have a lot of complex code running as root in a suid binary? Because that's what he's complaining about

The complaint might be valid. The solution, to shoehorn yet another functionality on systemd will in no way reduce complexity or attack vectors, merely shift them, again, like with all systemd solutions.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#86

Post by constantcrying »

dale_glass wrote: post #82
constantcrying wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much time have you spent writing and debugging systemd init files?

I've written a fair amount. Nothing much to debug in most of them.

Riddle me this: can I create new mount files inside a systemd unit and have them activated to mount the locations specified? Do I need a daemon reload, for this?

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#87

Post by thiht »

constantcrying wrote: post #83
zokier wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of just hating based on assumptions it would be useful to actually familiarize with the thing you are critizising > But what makes me really upset is this completely unexplainable need to make everything part of one particular init system systemd is not init system, its and umbrella project for various core system components, which includes an init system. > There is absolutely no reason to tie your new sudo…

Half the people here tell me that systemd is great because it tries to create an integrated complete system, the other half tells me I can just pick and choose. Obviously one of these groups is lying.

Both can be true though, it can create an integrated system where everything systemd-* works together, but where you can replace any systemd-* you don’t like with something else

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#88

Post by throwaway598 »

hanselot wrote: post #67
Faaak wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, basically I've found that the people the more vocal against systemd are either not really knowing how it works behind the scenes, and just criticizing for the sake of it (or because other people do so), or criticizing from an ideological point of view (do one thing and do it well). They see systemd as an octopus, not following the unix ideology. Which I don't really agree tbh

[flagged]

The root of the problem is sudo, and su more generally. This derives from *nix, or mainstream versions today, requiring a super user, a manifestation of the problem with monolithic kernals. A microkernal may be a stepping stone to improving this but even this is not a solution. The only solution is no kernal space, no privileged user(s), all processes negotiate independently with each other.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#89

Post by constantcrying »

thiht wrote: post #87
constantcrying wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the people here tell me that systemd is great because it tries to create an integrated complete system, the other half tells me I can just pick and choose. Obviously one of these groups is lying.

Both can be true though, it can create an integrated system where everything systemd-* works together, but where you can replace any systemd-* you don’t like with something else

The point of an integrated system is that interactions between components enhance the system as a whole. This is obviously incompatible with an easy replacement of components.

This is literally just basic systems engineering. I don't even know what you are arguing here. The more tightly integrated a system is the harder it is to replace individual components.

Re: Run0, a systemd based alternative to sudo, announced

#90

Post by dale_glass »

constantcrying wrote: post #86
dale_glass wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written a fair amount. Nothing much to debug in most of them.

Riddle me this: can I create new mount files inside a systemd unit and have them activated to mount the locations specified? Do I need a daemon reload, for this?

That sounds like a job for systemd.generator.

I don't think having an unit that generates units at runtime is an officially supported use case, since generators exist.

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