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'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

houstonchronicle.com

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Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#81
post #37

There is an unfortunate tunnel vision focus on renewables when the real goal should be deep decarbonization. The reason is obvious when you realize that people of a certain generation (who are in power now) don't like nuclear energy because 'nuclear' was the bogeyman while they were growing up. They are dragging the rest of us down with them into an era of unstable and unreliable power at huge expense.

I am pro-nuclear as a concept but it seems to not economically viable -- look to the last plant to open in the US - Vogel being billions and over budget and in no way cost-competitive: https://www.powermag.com/blog/plant-vogtle-not-a-star-but-a-... If nuclear is going to ever succeed economically it would have to be via Small Modular Reactors that can be built en mass rather than bespoke power plants. And even there,…

If it's not economically viable then how come countries around the world, from rich to poor, and doing it? Do they just love wasting their money?

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#82
post #24

When there is a voltage or frequency disturbance on the grid, caused by lightning strikes or equipment failures, ERCOT expects power generators to “ride through” the disturbances and continue producing power. But inverter-based resources such as wind, solar and batteries — especially the oldest ones — may sometimes not be able to ride through the disturbance and could “trip” > offline and disconnect from the grid. Th…

I wonder what the expense of adding things like flywheel type storage to renewable grids is?

I’m not convinced it’s economical or required.

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#84
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-nuclear as a concept but it seems to not economically viable -- look to the last plant to open in the US - Vogel being billions and over budget and in no way cost-competitive: https://www.powermag.com/blog/plant-vogtle-not-a-star-but-a-... If nuclear is going to ever succeed economically it would have to be via Small Modular Reactors that can be built en mass rather than bespoke power plants. And even there,…

If it's not economically viable then how come countries around the world, from rich to poor, and doing it? Do they just love wasting their money?

Divide the amount of new renewable capacity by new nuclear capacity if that's your actual argument.

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#85
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The focus is on decarbonization, which is why the focus is on renewables, as they are the fastest, least cost route to decarbonization (along with efficiency). Nuclear? Why would you want to slow down decarbonization and make the process more expensive? It's almost as if your words of focus on decarbonization are lies.

> the fastest, least cost route to decarbonization Just wondering, did you read the article? The problem it describes with inverters is just one out of an array of problems with renewables (leaving aside hydro). Cost overruns due to electrical grid incompatibility, hardware instability, operation in bad weather conditions (almost certainly a fact of life in the near future), unprofitability, reliance on China for cri…

Nuclear's issues are far more intractable than renewables.

The issues you list with renewables are relatively benign. Inverters? Do you really want to argue electronic devices don't improve and cheapen dramatically over time? Grid compatibility? Nuclear needs a grid too. "Hardware instability"? Like, when a GW+ of capacity suddenly drops off the grid and you have to be ready for that? That's a chronic problem of nuclear. China? I thought they were the go-to party to point to to show nuclear wasn't dead.

Nuclear is proven in the sense it has a proven propensity for massive cost overruns. Renewable projects typically come in within 10% of projected cost (at least before overall inflation picked up, but that's affecting everything.)

Lots of countries are "looking at" nuclear. Looking is cheap, building is not. Experience with nuclear is showing that building more reactors is a tragic, often hideously expensive mistake. Even in China, nuclear is experiencing considerable friction compared to their renewable rollout.

That places like France and Ontario achieved deep decarbonization in the now distant past matters little. Nuclear was competitive with or cheaper than solar and wind back then. Now, it's not, because solar and wind (and storage) have improved so much. You can't go home again; you can't revert to an imagined happy nuclear childhood either. France is finding this out.

The notion that an "anti-science green lobby" is holding back nuclear is risible nonsense. This is a go-to conspiracy theory nuclear fans use to avoid the reality. Nuclear is being held back by its own failure to compete. Look at what has happened with costs for new nuclear construction: in the US, in the UK, in France, in Finland, even in the UAE and China (where costs have been high relative to renewable options.) This despite favorable sentiment toward nuclear in the places where they're still trying.

Carbon emissions in Germany have gone down even with the nuclear phaseout, btw. I'm sure you can find a year somewhere when they went up, but that's akin to the argument of climate change deniers looking at statistical blips and saying global warming has ended.

You yourself are living in a fantasyland where you desperately have to grasp at mental straws to protect yourself from the reality of nuclear's failure. This self deception will rapidly become impossible to sustain in the near future as renewables and storage continue their rampage to domination of the world energy system. Their prices continue to crash, and by the time the world is renewable powered their demonstrated experience effects will likely make them far cheaper than nuclear could ever hope to be. Solar, for example, will likely fall to under $0.01/kWh in the sunniest locations.

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not economically viable then how come countries around the world, from rich to poor, and doing it? Do they just love wasting their money?

Divide the amount of new renewable capacity by new nuclear capacity if that's your actual argument.

Why capacity and not actual MWh generated electricity?

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fastest, least cost route to decarbonization Just wondering, did you read the article? The problem it describes with inverters is just one out of an array of problems with renewables (leaving aside hydro). Cost overruns due to electrical grid incompatibility, hardware instability, operation in bad weather conditions (almost certainly a fact of life in the near future), unprofitability, reliance on China for cri…

Nuclear's issues are far more intractable than renewables. The issues you list with renewables are relatively benign. Inverters? Do you really want to argue electronic devices don't improve and cheapen dramatically over time? Grid compatibility? Nuclear needs a grid too. "Hardware instability"? Like, when a GW+ of capacity suddenly drops off the grid and you have to be ready for that? That's a chronic problem of nucl…

> Do you really want to argue electronic devices don't improve and cheapen dramatically over time?

No, I am arguing that people are not taking into account issues with the existing technologies and their capabilities, and instead thoughtlessly rolling out renewables onto the grid, putting people at real risk. You do understand what 'immediate catastrophic grid failure' means, right?

> Nuclear needs a grid too.

It's the same grid we already have! It was designed for baseload generation which is exactly what nuclear gives you! No costly grid upgrades required!

> when a GW+ of capacity suddenly drops off the grid and you have to be ready for that? That's a chronic problem of nuclear.

The 'sudden drop' is exactly what is avoided by nuclear's steady power generation.

> Renewable projects typically come in within 10% of projected cost

Until you factor in the massive upgrades that will be needed to the grid, the ecological toll of vast solar panel arrays and wind farms, the vast mining requirements for all the minerals needed for these devices, and the end-of-life (20 to 30 years) recycling and disposal costs. Then the picture is not so pretty!

> That places like France and Ontario achieved deep decarbonization in the now distant past matters little.

Yeah, facts don't matter and only unproven ideologically driven technologies matter.

> solar and wind (and storage) have improved so much.

Yes, they have improved so much that Texas is at risk of catastrophic grid collapse. Facts have an inconvenient way of intruding on fantasy!

> Look at what has happened with costs for new nuclear construction

What did happen with costs? UAE has successfully launched their NPP and is planning to build more. Not all costs are money sinks–these NPPs will generate clean power for decades, maybe even a century. They will produce minimal waste that will be safely sequestered and/or reused, and they will have very little ecological footprint. A nuclear power plant is one of the best investments you can make for the future.

> self deception will rapidly become impossible to sustain in the near future as renewables and storage continue their rampage to domination of the world energy system

Sure, in the future everything will be perfect and all of the problems that people have pointed out will magically go away. And I'm living in fantasy land ;-)

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s plenty of battery being deployed for ancillary services in Texas (frequency response, 30 minute, etc). They are getting paid tons to do it and it’s been coming online for years.

This doesn't seem to be getting the exposure it deserves --- please give links, I'd like to see! You seem to be implying that "the featured article" [1] is not giving that exposure (which is my sense as well). [1] looking for the shorthand for the original link that started the discussion, thinking that 'TFA' is correct, is this in the HN FAQ?

This article is decent: https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage... (no affiliation, looked like based on disclosure data).

Look at the revenue: it's 6% (now 12%) from energy arb and 58% (now 34%) from RRS-PFR (primary frequency response). Fully discharging and charging a battery is expensive from a lifecycle perspective (I think, I would love a reference), and if you can get paid a lot of money to charge/discharge by 5%, or not to do anything at all but sit charged (ECRS), you'd take that before damaging your expensive installation.

There isn't a lot of generation like this, primarily because getting a thermal generator to scale up or down is expensive, even for the nimblest of combined cycle plants.

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divide the amount of new renewable capacity by new nuclear capacity if that's your actual argument.

Why capacity and not actual MWh generated electricity?

That is a better metric. So, what do your calculations show for 2023?

Re: 'Catastrophic grid failure' a possibility for Texas solar/wind/battery storage

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem to be getting the exposure it deserves --- please give links, I'd like to see! You seem to be implying that "the featured article" [1] is not giving that exposure (which is my sense as well). [1] looking for the shorthand for the original link that started the discussion, thinking that 'TFA' is correct, is this in the HN FAQ?

This article is decent: https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage... (no affiliation, looked like based on disclosure data). Look at the revenue: it's 6% (now 12%) from energy arb and 58% (now 34%) from RRS-PFR (primary frequency response). Fully discharging and charging a battery is expensive from a lifecycle perspective (I think, I would love a reference), and if you can get paid a lot of money t…

Thanks for the reply!

Seems like this is 'really short term' (under 1h) and in the realm of frequency stabilization (short peaks)...?

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