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Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#81

Post by kelnos »

mouse_ wrote: post #2

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

I think it's a bit absurd to take something like "they don't make a full-size SD card reader module" and turn that into a trust issue. Unless, of course, they promised to design and sell one, and didn't follow through. Even then, seems a bit of an overreaction.

Meanwhile, my 12th-gen Intel Framework 13 has severe thermal throttling issues that support hasn't been able to resolve after more than a year of back and forth. While my confidence in the company is at an all-time low, I don't think this is a trust issue.

Anyway, they've already pre-announced a SD card module[0], and people can sign up to get updates about its development. They're even completely candid that it's not 100% certain they won't cancel the project. That sounds refreshingly trustworthy, over other companies that might promise it without disclosing the uncertainty, or even take pre-order money and hold onto it for who knows how long.

[0] https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#82

Post by kelnos »

paulmd wrote: post #39
multimoon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t own a framework device as it’s not my kind of niche, but this seems like a really weird place to throw around the word “trust”. That implies you believe they are doing something shady or nefarious by not making a sd card module - which they aren’t. This is just an old fashioned business decision where it’s not the financial priority right now. What I think you mean to say is that it’s a feature required for y…

Honestly it is a trust issue. I almost bought a framework laptop last year. People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste of a large amount of money and time and yes, that is a trust issue. And you can say “well that wasn’t the official framework org” but they’re kinda holding thems…

> People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste

So let me get this straight: a bunch of your friends evangelized Framework to you, but you decided not to go with it, and later realized you made the right decision. And because of that, you don't "trust" Framework (the company). That's not only a weird overreaction, but also a weird place to assign blame. Maybe tell your friends to stop pressuring you to buy things that aren't your cup of tea? Or, hell, maybe tell your friends to stop pressuring you to buy things, period... cuz that's kinda an inappropriate thing for a supposed friend to do?

> apparently don’t have things as basic as working Linux drivers

Not sure what you mean; Linux runs fine on my Framework, with all hardware fully supported.

> I think there is indeed a general belief among the public that you need to at least get that far before holding yourself out for public consumption

I think the general belief among the public is, "Linux? what's that?" Most consumer laptops do not have official support for Linux, and many of them have various bits of hardware (looking at you, Dell, and the fingerprint sensor on my old laptop) that don't work on Linux at all. Yes, Framework has advertised some Linux support, but I think it's been pretty clear that Windows is their priority. And regardless... Linux works fine on Framework laptops. Also consider that "Linux" isn't just one thing: realistically Framework can only test one or two distros; if you want to run something else, you're quite reasonably on your own, and should try to repro issues while running the supported distros before blaming Framework.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#83

Post by kelnos »

Macha wrote: post #15
gravescale wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing (the only difference is the mechanical write protect toggle). Then again they have a miniscule engineering team but they have made two laptops with some pretty non-conventional design aspects and a bunch of modules including a swappable GPU and (one of?) the first 180W USB-C power supplies the…

> Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things? I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your…

> I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your computer" market is smaller than the "put SD cards in your computer" market.

Just one single anecdotal data point, but: I'm not sure the last time I've even seen a full-size SD card, let alone used one. I don't use microSD a ton, but enough that I'm glad I have the expansion card for it.

I do think my DSLR takes a full-size SD card, but I (somewhat sadly) haven't touched it in years.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#84

Post by kelnos »

gravescale wrote: post #7
mouse_ wrote: post #2

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing (the only difference is the mechanical write protect toggle). Then again they have a miniscule engineering team but they have made two laptops with some pretty non-conventional design aspects and a bunch of modules including a swappable GPU and (one of?) the first 180W USB-C power supplies the…

> It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing

I wouldn't be surprised if the internals of the module would need to be completely redesigned, with the circuit board layout redone, for a full-size SD card. The SD card itself likely would physically reside in a location where other components reside in the microSD reader expansion card.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#85

Post by kelnos »

CoBE10 wrote: post #13
kiba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird reason to reject them. Not everybody uses SD card module.

From personal experience (I don't use SD cards often) I would rather have another USB A or C port instead of SD port. USB SD card readers are so much cheaper and smaller than Framework expansion cards, that having one in a bag takes less space, and you can carry them like USB flash drive.

Well, that's one of the Framework's value props: you can have both, and swap out the card reader module for a port module if you want to. And if you aren't sure, you can always carry the module with you, which is no worse than if you had to carry an external reader.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#86

Post by starkparker »

nrp wrote: post #60
dheera wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest gripe is that for something intended to be DIY upgradable, 2 years later, there is a complete lack of ecosystem and parts for it. I was hoping for pluggable modules for {IMU, GPS, barometer, geiger counter, air quality sensor, software-defined radio, 5G cellular, RGB LEDs, power-over-ethernet charging, even a small motor module so the laptop can drag itself around on the table}. And what do we get? Some st…

For the Expansion Cards you noted, several have been created by members of the Framework Community, and a few folks have started to sell the modules they are creating: https://community.frame.work/c/developer-program/85 Josh Cook is probably the most prolific developer and has most of his designs available for preorder: https://community.frame.work/t/custom-framework-module-purch...

While I appreciate that this is happening, these projects are painfully difficult to discover as someone not active on the forums or Discord.

Are there plans to open the Framework marketplace to creators so that parts like Josh Cook's can be visible, or even sold, in the same storefront as Framework's own parts? Or regularly promoting community parts and designs on official channels outside of the forum?

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#87

Post by mixmastamyk »

cobri wrote: post #70
nrp wrote: post #58

We are taking both the article and the comments here and elsewhere to heart. Our entire focus is on building products that get better over time through repair, upgrade, and overall design for longevity, and software is a necessary part of that. We recognize that we have fallen short of where we need to be, and are making the needed investments to resolve this. Last week, we published the final release for the Windows…

Thank you for the willingness to listen to and act on feedback!

Hmm, feedback should not be required to realize firmware needs more frequent than >yearly/once releases. (Not to mention security issues that should be fixed a lot more quickly.)

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#88

Post by pquki4 »

pquki4 wrote: post #53
cjk2 wrote: post #40

I actually have no problem with this because Dell/Lenovo/HP software and firmware is a mess. I suspect the issue is that the underlying platform is shit and a mess and this is being reflected in the software. At least Framework are trying, unlike Dell/Lenovo/HP.

Can't agree, at least Lenovo is trying: https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/25/24081225/lenovo-thinkpad-... Dell on the other hand...

Dude, I don't know what your expectations are, but you have to give credit where credit is due. Lenovo is never going to release a Framework-like product, nor will most of the PC manufacturers. Improving the repairability of devices, however little, is progress, and is much more than what the Apple Lord will ever want to give you. The ability to replace RAM modules is significant, as it is almost non-existent these days on premium, non-gaming 14in laptops. I am not a Lenovo fanboy or anything, and Lenovo has plenty to dislike, but they are doing great work and heading in the correct direction.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#89

Post by nosrepa »

mouse_ wrote: post #2

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

Since when are apple users afraid of buying dongles? I thought that was their pastime.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#90

Post by mey »

nrp wrote: post #59
mey wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had to RMA my entire AMD laptop due to a BSOD issue, that lives on in the replacement device. It isn't a DIY config, using their charger, etc. I am 70% sure it's firmware, but no matter what the root cause is, I have little faith that the problem can be resolved due to lack of transparency or knowledge of the root cause. Edit: I think this is why Dell/Apple end up winning in the end. Stability in a computer is…

We've found and resolved this issue. We'll be promoting the BIOS update that resolves it to stable later today, but you can pick up the release (3.05) early here: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-laptop-13-ryzen-704...

Oh thank god! Deploying it now. (Assuming you are referring to https://community.frame.work/t/random-hard-freezes-fw13-amd7... )
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