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EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

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Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#81
post #55

As a Finn, the most annoying aspect here is the unequal treatment by the government. A PHEV is treated very favourably tax wise, and the emissions calculations are very optimistic about the usage of electric power. My car is a compressed natural gas car that I drive with 100 % biogas, which is domestic made from waste and other side products of industry, and has an estimated CO2 equivalent emission of ~0 g/km. The ta…

Natural gas and biogas, are they both CH4? I heard they could be way worse than CO2 and leak might be inevitable to distribute them around the country and pumped into cars from time to time? Are there scientific evaluation on the impact?

It's the same stuff. I'm not sure how much of it leaks, but you have to either flare it or use it for something or it leaks anyway. Using it for cars and trucks is basically flaring it but using that energy for propulsion.

The taxes are not based on that, though. They're strictly interested in tailpipe emissions (not even lifecycle emissions), and don't recognise biogas at all.

I'm planning on switching to a BEV eventually, but right now it's not financially possible. Most of the time I commute on my bicycle anyway.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Subaru in the US has a sticker that says "Partial Zero Emission Vehicle". Yeah right. https://www.subaruonlineparts.com/sku/j121sfj700.html

How could anything be "partial zero"? lol

0 for some pollutants but not others. If you capture & catalyze all the SO2 in the exhaust but nothing else, that's a "partial zero emission vehicle".

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… None of it is about the environment.

The same Germany where the "Green party" pushed to close nuclear power plants and buy more gas from the Russians. Truly clown world.

If you look on the actual data, it's the other way around. Is this just Russian opinion making?

1. The Greens didn't push to close the nuclear power plants alone:

The phase-out of nuclear energy in Germany was first regulated in the year 2000 under the red-green federal government (Schröder I Cabinet) through a contract known as the Nuclear Consensus between the Federal Republic and various operating companies. In 2002, the German Nuclear Energy Act was revised based on this contract. The Nuclear Consensus stipulated that, assuming a standard operational lifetime of about 32 years, a nuclear power plant was allowed to produce a specified "remaining electricity amount" before being decommissioned. Based on the electricity production of the individual plants in the past, the assigned remaining electricity amounts would mean that the last of the 19 German nuclear power plants would be decommissioned around 2021. Because the Nuclear Consensus allowed for the transfer of remaining electricity amounts between plants, the Stade (on November 14, 2003) and Obrigheim (on May 11, 2005) nuclear power plants were decommissioned.

On October 28, 2010, the Bundestag, with a black-yellow majority under the Merkel II Cabinet, decided on a further amendment to the Nuclear Energy Act, extending the operating times of the seven facilities that started operation before 1980 by eight years each, and those of the remaining ten nuclear power plants by 14 years each. This was publicly referred to as a "reversal of the phase-out." In return, the energy companies committed to an annual payment of 300 million euros for the years 2011 and 2012, and 200 million euros annually until 2016. The funds were intended to finance the Energy and Climate Fund. Furthermore, the federal government (as announced on September 6) introduced a nuclear fuel tax of 2.3 billion euros annually for six years, from January 1, 2011, to December 31, 2016.

This extension was revised in 2011 – following the onset of the Fukushima nuclear disaster. This was publicly referred to as a "reversal of the reversal of the phase-out." After the announcement of a moratorium on operating times on March 14, 2011, the operators ceased their payments to the Energy and Climate Fund.

During the energy crisis following the energy conflict in 2022, the federal government allowed the continued operation of the last three nuclear power plants, Emsland, Isar 2, and Neckarwestheim 2, until mid-April 2023; this required a legislative change, as the Nuclear Energy Act of 2011 had definitively planned for a gradual phase-out by the end of 2022. In April 2023, the nuclear power plants Emsland, Isar 2, and Neckarwestheim 2 were taken offline.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#84
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same Germany where the "Green party" pushed to close nuclear power plants and buy more gas from the Russians. Truly clown world.

If you look on the actual data, it's the other way around. Is this just Russian opinion making? 1. The Greens didn't push to close the nuclear power plants alone: The phase-out of nuclear energy in Germany was first regulated in the year 2000 under the red-green federal government (Schröder I Cabinet) through a contract known as the Nuclear Consensus between the Federal Republic and various operating companies. In 20…

>> The same Germany where the "Green party" pushed to close nuclear power plants and buy more gas from the Russians. Truly clown world.

> If you look on the actual data, it's the other way around. Is this just Russian opinion making?

>The Greens didn't push to close the nuclear power plants alone: [...]

Am I misreading your post? It looks like you're not really disagreeing with the claim that '"Green party" pushed to close nuclear power plants', just quibbling over some details like whether other parties were involved.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in a sparsely populated area is the luxury here. You can live somewhere rural, somewhere small, but still within biking distance of everything you need daily and within train or bus of weekly needs.

I'm afraid missing the nuances of people's livelihood is exactly the point I tried to make: > If you ignore the needs of those people, you only strengthen political forces who also support big oil. There needs to be a middle ground. How are you even transporting your weekly groceries without a car? What if you have family? And do you also use your bike during heavy rain/winter/strong heat? It just doesn't work in pra…

> How are you even transporting your weekly groceries without a car?

My bicycle rear rack is rated for 25KG and I have 2 70L bags, my Wald front basket can handle some additionnal load and I converted my old kids trailer to carry groceries too. I can carry enough.

But you don't have to buy a week worth of groceries in a single day.

Also we are in 2024. Supermarkets do deliveries.

> What if you have family?

There are seats for toddlers and cargo bikes and trailers for those that need to carry more than one. After that kids love cycling. We are constantly saying humans have a way too sedentary life and people need to exercise in order to be healthy. You have here a solution much cheaper both in term of time and money than going to the gym.

> And do you also use your bike during heavy rain/winter/strong heat?

You just deal with it the same way you do when you have to walk from your car in that huge parking lot to the place you are actually going to.

The only limiter is climbs. But if I was limited by my climbing capacity while loaded I would use an e-bike.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#86
post #78
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the same Germany who recently “halved” their plastic waste numbers by attaching milk bottle caps to the actual bottles so they’re counted as a single piece of waste instead of two… Do you have any sources discussing this? Most waste numbers I've seen from France (where I live) and the EU are in volume or weight, neither of which will be affected by the caps remaining attached to bottles (which is an EU-wide…

That is simply a lie. And these are probably accounts for opinion making. It is an EU-wide regulation from 2019, which is now being implemented by all EU states [0]. In addition, the way in which plastic waste is counted is also prescribed throughout the EU [1]. [0]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/904/oj [1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

ahh since i just poured a massive amount of milk onto the table, exactly due to this - what are you talking about? This reg is in place, now.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#87

Hybrids were mostly a tax scam in my opinion. In Germany until recently you could get a 6,000-8,000 € subsidy on these cars and when leasing them through a company you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well. Not to forget the vehicle tax was drastically reduced as well. Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars, and the…

>you got a really nice tax reduction from 1% of the list price to 0,25 %, which amounts to several thousand Euros per year as well

how does a 0.75 percentage point savings amount to "several thousand Euros per year"?

>Overall mostly very affluent people bought these cars,

Tesla buyers tend to be affluent as well. Should we cancel EV tax credits for them as well?

>and the net effect for the environment was probably negative

I don't get it. According to the EPA at least hybrids have much better fuel efficiency than their conventional counterparts. Therefore I don't understand how the hybrids would be a net negative.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#88
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Urban" in the US doesn't mean a dense city where mass transit makes sense. Loads of areas in the US are "urban" but due to design are practically entirely car dependent. Houses are in seas of single family homes with large lots. Stores are islands separated by massive parking lots. Bolting on a bus service to those designs means driving tons of empty busses (lots of different routes because things are everywhere ) a…

To be posts like yours sound like you actually are saying you shouldn't do mass transit - they're always full of excuses and reasons to delay, avoid and not move on it. You seem to reduce someone saying "let's do mass transit" to "let's buy more busses" and then argue against it.

No, I agree, we should do mass transit. I want more of it. I use what's already there when it makes sense. I'd love to massively reduce my VMT.

But take for example my neighborbood. There's bus lines on the north edge going east-west, bus lines on the west edge going north-south. I'm lucky, I live at the west edge of my neighborhood near one of the entrances so the north line stop is just outside my door. The south bound stop is across six lanes of 40+mph traffic with the nearest crosswalk over a quarter mile. It's a half-mile walk from my house to the east-west stop on the north edge of my neighborhood. And I'm in the middle-west edge of my neighborhood, if you're in the south-east of the neighborhood you've got about a mile walk to get to a bus stop. And my neighborhood isn't even a very big one for DFW.

It doesn't make sense to snake the busses all throughout the neighborhoods, you'll spend all the bus travel time going up and down residential streets. Nobody wants to ride on a bus slowly crawling through the maze of residences.

And even then, once I get on the bus half the travel time is just going past one development of houses after another. And I'm in a generally denser and more mixed part of the city than a lot of these places. Lots of my friends live in neighborhoods where it's at least a 5-10min drive to leave their neighborhood. Then they pass by a few neighborhoods before they get to the first small smatterings of retail, but chances are it doesn't have the stop they're interested in.

Transit really just can't function with this design. We need to redesign this to make it work. Cut up these massive residential only blocks, mix in some retail, densify things, etc. I'm not saying this to suggest we can't do it, I'm just being realistic to the challenges at hand. Burying your head in the sand acting like it's just a matter of another train line or more bus service or adding bike lanes isn't going to solve the systemic design issues we have in a lot of US cities and towns.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#89
post #72

Don't plug in hybrids typically have a 20-30 mile range on the battery? Unless I have a dedicated garage for my car it just sounds like a huge faff. The cost savings for plugging it in vs. fuelling it are probably something like 50 pence, and the only time I'm ever going to do that would be dangling a cable from a window if I manage to park outside the house.

No lampposts with charging where you are ?

There are a couple and the parking spaces are restricted for use only whilst charging, the cost is also double or so what I pay at home.

So basically for the sake of saving pennies I would have to hope that space is free, park in it, then move the car later when it's done, probably use some weird app because there's no normal way to pay, etc.

If I forget, then I get a £40+ parking ticket which would wipe out weeks/months of savings.

I don't own a PHEV but if I did I think I'd probably do it a few times for the novelty factor and then give up. It's not practical at all.

Re: EU data shows PHEVs emit 350% more CO2 than tested values

#90
post #24

I have a BMW PHEV, so much depends on your use cycle and whether or not you charge it. I have cheap electricity from 12:30am to 4:30am for charging every night. If I just do the school run and a trip to the shops in it I would never need petrol. But in the winter I can't get to the office and back on electricity only which is a shame. If I never charge it it works as a normal hybrid and I get low 40's UK MPG, which i…

For comparison my 240hp awd non-hybrid vehicle gets about 34mpg
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