Is this a practical solution in America where taxes are more limited than other nations?
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What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
81–90 of 128 posts
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem. As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.
Teaching the test narrows the subject matter significantly. Some of the most important things I learned in school weren't directly on tests: critical thinking, fallacies, cultural studies, how to avoid being exploited. That said, in some circumstances only teaching the test could be an improvement.
I was in a meeting once where an outside advisor asked the test group to share the test cases with the developers.
"But if we do that," the test manager complained, "the code will only work for the tests."
"Well, wouldn't that be a nice change." observed the Director.
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#83More people need to be encouraged to become teachers - full stop. Its a valid concern that there are some teachers that are not good, and would be weeded out by performance based metrics. However - everyone else at the school knows who the bad teachers are. They're obvious. They're the ones leaving their class unattended. Doing the bare minimum. These people can't be weeded out right now because there's a shortage of…
>>These people can't be weeded out right now because I thought one of the causes was unions? qv "rubber rooms" etc.
Substitute teachers typically aren't part of unions but schools are forced to keep bringing in the ones that don't care at all because there's just not enough.
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#84They fight over who gets to teach the asian and white kids.
I'd suggest more any familial units with manners and respect - regardless of wealth or race. Lots of white kids who act poorly in rich & poor neighborhoods the teachers don't want to deal with but have to.
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#85I saw this discussed on Marginal Revolution today as well. My main question is whether the gains are fundamentally zero-sum, at least in the short term. Some districts implement flexible pay and some don’t, and then the best teachers move to get paid more. And the places that get left behind…? In the long-run, increased pay ought to lead to more high-quality teachers entering the profession. But in the short term, th…
good performance and putting in extra effort should be rewarded over those who just do their job at the minimum effort levels. That's a fundamental problem with teacher pay, there are no bonusses, there are hardly incentives or room for raises. It's all just tenure based. Once you're in, you're in.
> there are hardly incentives or room for raises.
There are lots of incentives. If you get a master's degree, your pay automatically goes up!
Does that help anyone but you? Well, it helps the school of education that you paid for your degree. Does it help anyone else? Of course not.
But that doesn't mean there are no incentives. We stated what we wanted, and we got it. We have more incentives than we need.
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if the standardized tests aren't administered by the teacher? That seems like it would be an easy solution to get around the cheating problem. As for teaching to the test, what's the real downfall of doing that? Colleges use standardized test scores as the biggest or one of the biggest criteria in admission.
If a teacher knows or suspects what questions will be on the test, they can drill their students to memorize the answers the week before the test. That's cheating and it doesn't matter who proctors the test.
I once taught a class for teachers and after so many failed to be able to apply the quadratic equation, I told him that it would be the bonus question for the next test.
After so many then failed I told them that just writing the formula would be the bonus question on the next test.
Very few people got the bonus question.
In order to drill students to memorize, that students have to be present enough and interested enough for it to stick...
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#87I was a public school teacher that worked in a district that attempted to measure teacher value add. There was limited pay for performance based on that metric. And the district I worked in was majority racial minority and majority living in poverty. "Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of…
The sick idea that profit is the onlyway to motivate humans is historically idiotic. It is an outcome of pathetic efforts to legitimate capitalism, a system of exploitation.
I agree but I wouldn't pin all the blame on the big C.
Marxism places a lot of emphasis on materialism, which was always one of the biggest targets for its critics. One man's profit is another's stolen labor value. Both systems of economic (that should be the clue here) thought are very materialist and don't do a good enough job assigning value to intrinsic motivation, believing in something, following a passion, etc.
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>These people can't be weeded out right now because I thought one of the causes was unions? qv "rubber rooms" etc.
I'm speaking from the experience of being married to a teacher at a very large highschool in a medium sized city here in the US. In all the years of her talking to me about her work I don't think she's ever mentioned her union. Maybe she's just not at the admin level and dealing with it but given the number of vacancies at her school (which is considered one of the best in our city) - I don't even think the union is…
Maybe it's location based.
Looking at other HN stories today, maybe we swap all the Software Developer H1B visas into teaching :-)
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
If a teacher knows or suspects what questions will be on the test, they can drill their students to memorize the answers the week before the test. That's cheating and it doesn't matter who proctors the test.
I once taught a class for teachers and after so many failed to be able to apply the quadratic equation, I told him that it would be the bonus question for the next test. After so many then failed I told them that just writing the formula would be the bonus question on the next test. Very few people got the bonus question. In order to drill students to memorize, that students have to be present enough and interested e…
When I was in my teaching Masters program, we talked a lot about intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is when you want to do something for yourself, e.g. you enjoy the satisfaction of solving a problem. Extrinsic motivation is when your reason for doing it comes from outside yourself, e.g. your parents tell you they'll give you $20 for every A you get on your report card. The district I worked in experimented with extrinsic motivators to get students to attend school and perform well on the test with rewards like food, gift cards, and electronics. That was enough to get some students to try to do better, but usually only the students who already had some intrinsic motivation. The students that they were really trying to motivate were the ones with no intrinsic motivation, and they largely ignored the rewards offered.
Re: What happens when we pay public high school teachers based on performance
#90It seems like the only way to really assess a teachers performance is by evaluating the outcomes of their students over time.
Since teaching career progression in the US is mostly tenure based I've always wondered why there wasn't a more longitudinal approach to their assessment.
The product is the students ability to achieve over time. One batch of good test results doesn't measure anything other than the teachers ability to get good outcomes for the test.