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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#81

Post by mamonster »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58
mamonster wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abu Dhabi does not belong in the list with the other ones. It has been extremely well run since Zayed bin Sultan and will probably transition quite well to a post oil future.

> Abu Dhabi does not belong in the list with the other ones. It has been extremely well run since Zayed bin Sultan It's also governed differently from the others in being an oligarchy. That requirement for consensus-building and internal variation creates robustness; it gave Dubai the room to experiment, for example, with religious moderation. It's not a view I hold too seriously. But I remember visiting the Emirates…

I don't know if oligarchy is the correct word, its more like a union of 7 mini-monarchies.

UAE is doing so well for (mainly) 2 reasons:

1) The Shakhbut coup in Abu Dhabi

2) Abu Dhabi and Dubai buried the hatchet to form UAE(there was a lot of bad blood between the 2 states, but because Rashid bin Saeed and Zayed bin Sultan were way above average as far as authoritarians go they managed to avoid stupid conflicts and focused on cashing in on the oil).

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#82

Post by sztanko »

Economics explained YouTube channel has a good coverage on the rationale behind the crazy projects like this. In short, while the project itself might not make much sense, the infrastructure created to build it will stay and it makes it more accommodating to build other, more rational projects.

https://youtu.be/pnrAxfzHElo?si=ceaS6MIs7qrP9ohL

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#83

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dragonwriter wrote: post #73
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one "signs off" on an absolute monarch's design Nitpick, but MBS isn't the sovereign. His father is. Given MBS isn't acting as regent, he's actually--in the most technical way--a tyrant: "the tyrant was Very Obviously but not formally in charge, because he ruled extra-constitutonally, rather than abolishing the constitution. This is what seperates tyranny, a form of extra-constitutional one man rule, from monarc…

MBS is formally in charge from the perspective of anyone but the King since being appointed PM (a title normally held by the monarch), and arguably even before that as First Deputy Prime Minister. His power is not (as far as anyone not privy to the private preferences of King Salman can say) extraconstitutional, since it flows directly from royal decree giving him the position and authority he holds, and Saudi Arabia…

> since it flows directly from royal decree giving him the position and authority he holds

Do you have a source for the decree? (EDIT: Nvm, Salman delegated various affairs to MBS [1], as well as made him PM [2]. Salman remains the head of state.)

I'd still argue that MBS is not formally in charge. The President can delegate their authority to a rando, that doesn't make it lower-case constitutional, e.g. Edith Wilson [3]. (Granted, that was done without formal decree.)

Going back to the Greek analog, tyrants would usually gain some instrument from the formal leader technically legitimising their actions. But the formal leader wasn't the one deciding. The tyrant was.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1DA23M/

[2] https://amwaj.media/media-monitor/saudi-power-transition-con...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Wilson#Increased_role_af...

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#85

Post by jannw »

gherkinnn wrote: post #19

The whole idea of a linear city is daft. A circle is way more efficient at getting around. The dimensions of the Line are, of course, silly as well.

Not so daft if you consider that it is easier to segment, stratify, and control people in a linear city, as the structure itself acts as a continuous and infinitely adaptable choke point. This seems consistent with Saudi elite's ideas on managing their society.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#86

Post by SilverBirch »

slifin wrote: post #62

I'm surprised there isn't a bigger movement to intentionally boycott buying fuel from countries like this A lot of people in western countries indirectly pay for this

What would be the motivation for a boycott? That the Saudis spend their money on stupid vanity projects? In general I think this is one of the better uses of the cash - hell, a vast amount of the money spent on this is going to flow straight out to western companies who have the experience and expertise to actually deliver these complex infrastructure projects.

Think of the alternatives, top 5 oil producing countries: US(13bb/day), Russia (13bb/day), Saudi (9bb/day), Canada (5bb/day), Iraq(4bb/day).

We all know what's currently happening in Russia. The US and Canada have good production, but they're a long way from Europe. So how exactly do you expect Eastern Europe to heat their homes during winter?

Let's be clear, they can't even really afford to boycott Russia at the moment - Russian oil is pumping out to India and getting re-badged. So the idea they'd pick a fight with Saudi Arabia seems ambitious to say the least.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#87

Post by Mashimo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #9

Saudi Arabia has this weird affinity for these completely ridiculous sci-fi projects that are proposed as actual non-fantasy developments. See the Mukaab for another example.

> Saudi Arabia has this weird affinity for these completely ridiculous sci-fi projects Same reason Egypt is building a decadent new capital: it lets the ruler pay off his supporters.

Also most "normal" people will be physical separated from the ruling people. Makes it harder to protest government buildings.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#88

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mamonster wrote: post #81
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Abu Dhabi does not belong in the list with the other ones. It has been extremely well run since Zayed bin Sultan It's also governed differently from the others in being an oligarchy. That requirement for consensus-building and internal variation creates robustness; it gave Dubai the room to experiment, for example, with religious moderation. It's not a view I hold too seriously. But I remember visiting the Emirates…

I don't know if oligarchy is the correct word, its more like a union of 7 mini-monarchies. UAE is doing so well for (mainly) 2 reasons: 1) The Shakhbut coup in Abu Dhabi 2) Abu Dhabi and Dubai buried the hatchet to form UAE(there was a lot of bad blood between the 2 states, but because Rashid bin Saeed and Zayed bin Sultan were way above average as far as authoritarians go they managed to avoid stupid conflicts and f…

> I don't know if oligarchy is the correct word, its more like a union of 7 mini-monarchies

Fair enough. And as you describe, it's more a diarchy of Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Nevertheless, structurally different from the absolute monarchies around them.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#89

Post by Barrin92 »

sztanko wrote: post #82

Economics explained YouTube channel has a good coverage on the rationale behind the crazy projects like this. In short, while the project itself might not make much sense, the infrastructure created to build it will stay and it makes it more accommodating to build other, more rational projects. https://youtu.be/pnrAxfzHElo?si=ceaS6MIs7qrP9ohL

That's a rationalization, not a rationale. Every project can have useful byproducts, and nobody's rationale is to start a dumb one trillion dollar project rather than a smart one.

The reason why this exists is obviously that these projects are started by absolute rulers who want to build themselves vanity monuments the same way their ancient predecessors did.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#90

Post by DrBazza »

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

You can build all the vanity projects you like when you're rich with petro-dollars, and pay Asian workers less than $10 per day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa#Labour

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