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Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

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Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#81

Post by banashark »

Capricorn2481 wrote: post #78
banashark wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from on these 100%, but I believe some of the conclusions might be more dire than they are in practice. Both identity and efcore both work fine with F#. What _doesn't_ work is the EF Core design-time support (having models auto-create your schema) and scaffolding razor pages with F# (razor pages just doesn't work in general). Calling these APIs (authing your users, and interacting wit…

But EFcore and Identity are documented assuming you'll use scaffolding. They set up a bunch of models for you representing users and roles. You wouldn't know how to set this up if you tried to do it in F#. You'd have to set it up in C# first to see what it would look like, and then you might as well just use C#

Agreed on most of this except for the takeaway (seems to be a theme haha).

In the end, I still ended up using F#, since it was only about 30 minutes of copy/pasting the classes/etc over once, and for the rest of the time in development I got to stay in F# land.

To be explicit, I did do what you say here. I scaffolded things out in C#, then just copied/translated that over to F# calls. All the APIs still work just fine.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#82

Post by banashark »

neonsunset wrote: post #75
banashark wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from on these 100%, but I believe some of the conclusions might be more dire than they are in practice. Both identity and efcore both work fine with F#. What _doesn't_ work is the EF Core design-time support (having models auto-create your schema) and scaffolding razor pages with F# (razor pages just doesn't work in general). Calling these APIs (authing your users, and interacting wit…

The temptation to whine, cry and complain is too high in developer communities, as always. It's either "just the way I want it exactly" or "unusable", any smallest and most accessible but slightly different option from preferred way to make things work be damned. I'm really sad to see a part of F# community being persistently vocal against .NET which makes F# viable and possible in the first place.

I'm happy with how usable F# is as the moment, though it's not hard to sympathize with the sentiments that get thrown around.

F# has had a good run with a lot of open-source efforts in different domains, but as some core parts of the domain evolve (asp.net), if there are changes made which make it more complicated or prohibitive to use F# (t4 templates, roslyn analyzers, custom code-behind behavior), it can seem like F# is on-track to become deprecated by the moving-target that is it's native platform tooling.

I don't have much of a doomer mindset about things, since from the evidence of the F# team's priorities, it's keeping up with CLR and C# specific features (check the F# releases for how many features are compatibility-focused) while also delivering on some very cool F# specific things (SRTP, nested record copy/update, etc).

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#83

Post by kmclean »

cess11 wrote: post #58
yayitswei wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting is subjective, but Rich gave a talk at the most recent Clojure Conj.

I looked at ClojureTV and that's all I saw from recent years.

There was a bit of a conference hiatus worldwide due to the pandemic, but the Clojure community (including Rich) is definitely still active.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#84

Post by bmitc »

Y_Y wrote: post #68
sokoloff wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academics is much older than Python. At some point, they adopted that .

Academics (the mass noun, meaning something similar to "academia") does indeed learn and progress. Academics (the worker bees in the academic hive) can be super intransigent and in my experience learn a couple of tools in their younger days and never again. As they say, science advances one funeral at a time. I've found that new ideas and technologies are almost always brought in by new students, and not old academic…

> can be super intransigent

I learned a new word today.

And I agree, but the end might be a bit optimistic at how often or efficiently that happens. In my experience, most are all too willing to accept the institutionalized choices.

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#85

Post by dustingetz »

clusterhacks wrote: post #80
dustingetz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

clojure is everywhere in fintech - nubank, guaranteed rate, kroo bank, griffin, pennymac, two sigma, dividend finance, treasury prime, gravie. Other big areas are healthcare and midmarket adtech. And of course startups outside of SF/NYC with smaller seed rounds looking for tech advantage - midwest USA, Europe/UK, Latin america The further you get from silicon valley the more clojure you see — anyone with a network at…

Doesn't this ignore the reality on the ground that Clojure is a niche (but wonderful) programming language that offers very few career opportunities? It simply isn't big in any specific domain. I also don't buy that you see more Clojure the "further you get from silicon valley ..." without some actual (or even anecdotal) data to support that claim. I'm not saying there are zero instances of Clojure in production syst…

because most of Electric Clojure's commercial users and prospects are European startups (I am the founder)

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#86

Post by Capricorn2481 »

banashark wrote: post #81
Capricorn2481 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But EFcore and Identity are documented assuming you'll use scaffolding. They set up a bunch of models for you representing users and roles. You wouldn't know how to set this up if you tried to do it in F#. You'd have to set it up in C# first to see what it would look like, and then you might as well just use C#

Agreed on most of this except for the takeaway (seems to be a theme haha). In the end, I still ended up using F#, since it was only about 30 minutes of copy/pasting the classes/etc over once, and for the rest of the time in development I got to stay in F# land. To be explicit, I did do what you say here. I scaffolded things out in C#, then just copied/translated that over to F# calls. All the APIs still work just fin…

Thanks for responding, glad it's working for you. F# is a very cool language

Re: Clojure's machine learning ecosystem

#87

Post by Capricorn2481 »

banashark wrote: post #81
Capricorn2481 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But EFcore and Identity are documented assuming you'll use scaffolding. They set up a bunch of models for you representing users and roles. You wouldn't know how to set this up if you tried to do it in F#. You'd have to set it up in C# first to see what it would look like, and then you might as well just use C#

Agreed on most of this except for the takeaway (seems to be a theme haha). In the end, I still ended up using F#, since it was only about 30 minutes of copy/pasting the classes/etc over once, and for the rest of the time in development I got to stay in F# land. To be explicit, I did do what you say here. I scaffolded things out in C#, then just copied/translated that over to F# calls. All the APIs still work just fin…

I'm still a little confused on your answer to this. C# generated a big `BuildTargetModel` method on each generated migration, even if there are no changes. Are you changing this to an F# file every time? On every migration?
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