Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 225 posts

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#81

Post by Produce »

Why does everyone pay so much attention to what people like Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky have to say? Looking at Jeff's resume, he has had all of two jobs in his professional life, one of which was given to him by himself. Joel's resume is similar, a few low profile jobs (MS was not notable back then) then one given to himself.

From experience in the industry, it's pretty clear that programmers who stay in one spot for a long time are mediocre at best. Good developers move around a lot in order to work with a variety of people on a wide range of problems. Having an average job then starting a company does not automatically make one qualified to comment on anything.

In terms of the complexity of the software owned by the companies they respectively own, seriously? One is an average-at-best bug tracker and the other is a message board. I don't intend to scoff at people's achievements, please don't take it that way - all I'm saying is that the pudding contains too little proof, IMHO.

In short, I'll take Linus's or Shaw's opinion on a given software related subject over these guys' opinions any day of the week. They've produced valuable software and documentation, have worked on problems of a far larger scope and, IMO, are qualified to tell us what's better or worse.

The lesson to take away from this is that if you start a company, blog about your opinions, you will be considered important. Capitalize on that if you're an idiot, otherwise, go and do something useful for humanity.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#84

Post by B-Con »

zedshaw wrote: post #8
bryze wrote: post #4

I really don't know why people worry so much about this. I don't think dissuading people from entering any field is surprising. Generally, experts in a field want passionate, talented people, because that's how the field will likely advance, which is what any good expert hopes for. If we scare off the dispassionate before they have a chance to burden the field, great. This is exactly the purpose of "weeder" courses i…

Well, these "weeder" courses actually make for intellectually lazy education. Rather than study how best to teach a subject so everyone has a chance regardless of initial ability, you design curriculum that only works for naturals. But, ultimately, it's not the teacher's right to decide who's "passionate" enough or not. Trust me, if my teachers had any say in my success I'd be digging ditches.

> Well, these "weeder" courses actually make for intellectually lazy education.

I disagree. In order to do well at a subject in an academic setting, you need the upper classmen to be very comfortable with the basics. "Weeder" courses are always (almost always?) in subjects that are basic foundations for the field. The idea is that if you can't pass it, the things that build on it aren't going to make it any easier. As well, they ingrain a good understanding of the content in those who do pass it.

Since schools tailor content difficulty to the ability of the students, lower ability levels of the upper classmen mean that the class difficulty needs to be lowered. If you're in a competitive college that's trying to teach as much as possible, it definitely their call to only filter people with a certain level of ability. Unless you're at a hyper-elite very aggressive school, I doubt that the content is only designed for an ability level that comes only to naturals. It's generally just designed for "people who can do it well". (Obviously, naturals make up a decent portion of it.)

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#85

Post by zedshaw »

B-Con wrote: post #75
cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#86

Post by zedshaw »

prayag wrote: post #77
zedshaw wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not refuting his statement that programming is or is not a life skill. My opinion on the matter is demonstrated in my work. I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. Even though he doesn't say those very words, that's what he's saying. The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. Consider it a guess about…

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". The rest of the post is just more of that in different words.

Wow, alright I'm just going to stop replying to people who can't even read the title, but still claim it's not saying what it says.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#87

Post by Produce »

nkassis wrote: post #80
zedshaw wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if I learned to code when I was younger I'd be better at logic arguments. But, sadly, I'm a human and not a computer so I tend to write like a human.

See this is the crux of what I thought this movement was about. Logical and Algorithmic thinking is what people should be getting from learning to code. This is a fundamental thing like critical thinking which schools have a really hard time making kids learn. Plus I have to agree with you that today I wouldn't recommend my path to others trying to learn to program. It wouldn't make any sense.

I have to disagree with the sentiment that programming has anything to do with logical thinking. You can write awesome programs on feeling alone. For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious. The benefit which logic brings to the table is being able to communicate your ideas clearly.

Critical thinking is useful but it's not a golden hammer and, in this community, is vastly overrated. Balance between thinking and feeling, on the other hand, is of vital importance.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#88

Post by dbecker »

Produce wrote: post #81

Why does everyone pay so much attention to what people like Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky have to say? Looking at Jeff's resume, he has had all of two jobs in his professional life, one of which was given to him by himself. Joel's resume is similar, a few low profile jobs (MS was not notable back then) then one given to himself. From experience in the industry, it's pretty clear that programmers who stay in one spot f…

Even if you generally trust Linus more than Jeff, on this particular issue people are criticizing Jeff for being too harsh on beginners. Linus is consistently a harsher critic than Jeff.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#89

Post by jilebedev »

zedshaw wrote: post #69
decklin wrote: post #38

I need some sort of AI filter for HN that will not only hide blog posts from a particular domain, but hide other people's blog posts "responding" to those blog posts and then submitted as separate articles.

You should, then give it to me so I can sort out the comments that don't add to the discussion, but keep the replies telling people they aren't adding to the discussion.

> comments that don't add to the discussion

Atwood: > don't advocate learning to code just for the sake of learning how to code.

Shaw: > Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers

The OP here is non sequitur at best and strawman at worst. Certainly not a model for constructive contribution to a conversation.

The entire affair from here seems to be a nearly-pointless dramatic back-and-forth between loud people. I read HN for critical insight, not bickering.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#90

Post by zedshaw »

nkassis wrote: post #80
zedshaw wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if I learned to code when I was younger I'd be better at logic arguments. But, sadly, I'm a human and not a computer so I tend to write like a human.

See this is the crux of what I thought this movement was about. Logical and Algorithmic thinking is what people should be getting from learning to code. This is a fundamental thing like critical thinking which schools have a really hard time making kids learn. Plus I have to agree with you that today I wouldn't recommend my path to others trying to learn to program. It wouldn't make any sense.

I think you're applying boolean logic where there is none.

I wouldn't say that people should always totally be logical. That's stupid because logic ignores context which is very relevant in the real world.

I would say that one of the skills it teaches is the ability to think more logically. I also actually don't think that's the best skill it teaches. I think it gives people a bunch of other skills, and that "logic" is kind of secondary to the others.

Post reply on HN