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Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

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Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#81

Post by frereubu »

mattlondon wrote: post #53
_y5hn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been in use for thousands of years already: yoga, pranayama and meditation. There are courses one can take where one learns this, like Art of Living and any other that follows the same traditions. Yes, there's research on that, and new studies should absolutely gain from this study. Not entirely sure you'll observe the same effect, that depends on meditator, but you can fall asleep during practice. I have over…

I think the point of replacing sleep is to save time. Replacing hours of sleep with hours of yogo or mediation seems like you are not gaining anything.

I think the point would be if you could replace ~8 hours of sleep with ~1-2 hours of meditation. I very much doubt it's a like-for-like replacement, but it might go some way to reducing the need for full sleep, e.g. 2 hours meditating + 2 hours sleeping = 8 hours sleeping.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#82

Post by 0xEF »

bayindirh wrote: post #63
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you email the authors they might be happy to send you a copy - scientists tend to be in favour of the free exchange of information, there's no restriction on them sharing their paper if they choose to, and they don't get royalties from journal subscriptions so they have no vested interest in paywalling their research

Not all of them. I sent a couple of such mails, to only get back the freely available summary PDFs back. Even with the same checksum with the ones on the web.

True, but I'd say it's still worth the email asking. I used to work in the mental health field requested paywalled research papers on cognitive and developmental disabilities pretty regularly, and about 80% of the people I contacted sent the paper to me without much question.

The more we all do it, the more expected the practice becomes and with any luck, these money-grubbing journals will take note and start offering copies at a minimal fee or time-limited access.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#83

Post by pca006132 »

bayindirh wrote: post #61
achow wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it was published through Nature. But what stops Univ' site to have original research paper available for download? Nature magazine is just a distribution channel (they did not sponsor the research so should not have exclusive rights on it). Left college long time ago; and do not have access to any library system.

Copyright Transfer Agreement. The moment you send the paper to Nature, you can only publish the draft you sent in. Unless you pay for publish, editorial costs are paid by selling access to that paper. If you want to publish in an Open Access manner, you need to pay the costs. Or if your country wants to license it for Open Access, your country pays the costs.

If I understand correctly, for most publishers you are allowed to host a copy on your personal web as well as the university library catalog?

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#84

Post by Hendrikto »

pkoird wrote: post #77

Kinda tangential but I've noticed that my most satisfying and restorative sleep is always followed by tons of eye goop the following morning. Maybe a kind of brain-waste?

This has probably way more to do with how much REM sleep you get, which is said to be the most restorative sleep.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#85

Post by bayindirh »

pca006132 wrote: post #83
bayindirh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright Transfer Agreement. The moment you send the paper to Nature, you can only publish the draft you sent in. Unless you pay for publish, editorial costs are paid by selling access to that paper. If you want to publish in an Open Access manner, you need to pay the costs. Or if your country wants to license it for Open Access, your country pays the costs.

If I understand correctly, for most publishers you are allowed to host a copy on your personal web as well as the university library catalog?

AFAIK, this comes with distribution limitations like to your department and students in the university. There's an exception for arXiv generally for publishing intermediate revisions, but not the final one.

Elsevier has a nice summary at [0]. At the bottom there's "Publicly share the final published article". It's "YES" for Open Access and "NO" for subscription (classical) model. There's a rather detailed "Scholarly Share" which allows sharing with researchers, but not to any researcher, as I aforementioned on top.

[0]: https://www.elsevier.com/about/policies-and-standards/copyri...

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#86

Post by bayindirh »

0xEF wrote: post #82
bayindirh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of them. I sent a couple of such mails, to only get back the freely available summary PDFs back. Even with the same checksum with the ones on the web.

True, but I'd say it's still worth the email asking. I used to work in the mental health field requested paywalled research papers on cognitive and developmental disabilities pretty regularly, and about 80% of the people I contacted sent the paper to me without much question. The more we all do it, the more expected the practice becomes and with any luck, these money-grubbing journals will take note and start offerin…

Of course. I'm a big proponent of Open Access. OTOH, Elsevier seems to give 50 days of Open Access via share links. I didn't know that.

I was away from academic arena for some time. Looks like I'll be returning soon-ish.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#87

Post by robg »

If you have any doubts about sleep quantity and quality, worth reading about the glymphatic nervous system, which is so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/

In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glymphatic nervous system explains why sleep is so key to surviving and thriving. Maiken Nedergaard will end up winning the Nobel for its discovery.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#88

Post by 0xFEE1DEAD »

samstave wrote: post #45
salawat wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Chemogenetic flattening of these high-energy ionic waves largely impeded cerebrospinal fluid infiltration into and clearance of molecules from the brain parenchyma. Sounds like unsync'd brain waves, (being awake) impedes cerebrospinal fluid flow through the brain. When asleep, neurons sync their action potentials, acting like a ionized fluid pump, moving old dirty cerebrospinal fluid out, and allowing new, clean in.…

I wonder if this state could be ultrasonically induced to have a "sleep helmet" which can calm and align rhythmic waves? and induce an artificial flush or "power nap" -- Well, thats basically the trope of every Cybernetic design, with the connectors comming out the back of head/spine... Like a continual wash which keeps you in this suspended hyper-aware, but calm, rested and focused mental state. This is why cyborgs…

Have you seen the video on hn a couple of weeks ago about the scientist using ultrasound to halt the progression of Alzheimer’s and to treat addiction?

Most fascinating video I’ve seen in a long time.

Edit: If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend checking it out https://youtu.be/7BGtVJ3lBdE

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#90

Post by niemandhier »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #49
swores wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find free access to the full paper, but here's the abstract (afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to add to or explain any of it): " The accumulation of metabolic waste is a leading cause of numerous neurological disorders, yet we still have only limited knowledge of how the brain performs self-cleansing. Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitud…

> Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitude, rhythmic and self-perpetuating ionic waves in the interstitial fluid of the brain This line is the money shot. An action potential is the variable electrical charge of a neuron, and they maintain that charge by containing a certain concentration of ions relative to the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid. This p…

I’d expect that it’s probably not the ion movement but the global electric field, maybe even mechanical effects in the axons.

If you look at the Goldstein-Katz equations you see that the conductivities play an as important role as the concentrations.

Most of the voltage change is driven by changes in conductivities and not concentration changes, the ion movements across the membrane should be negligible.

Off course you have the free ions outside the cells than diffuse in a field gradient.

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