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Dress code: blue tie and male

elektronista.dk

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Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#81

Post by unimpressive »

makeramen wrote: post #78
unimpressive wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny because that comment shifts every half an hour or so between getting a few upvotes and then getting a few downvotes. Even if I end up with some downvotes in the end it's worth it just to watch the lovers and haters contest each other. EDIT: It's too bad people can't leave a reason for up/down voting, it would be interesting to see weather people actually think I believe that, or if they just didn't think i…

I'm staying neutral on this one, but I can imagine that may people don't think this comment contributes much to thoughtful discussion of the topic. Promoting these comments, or even not downvoting them creates a culture where these comments become accepted. I can see a comment like this (if upvoted) easily starting one of those "pun trains" commonly seen on reddit. I don't see anything specifically wrong with the iro…

>I can see a comment like this (if upvoted) easily starting one of those "pun trains" commonly seen on reddit.

It actually did, there's a copycat at the bottom of the page. Which I downvoted.

I actually felt bad about that aspect. A joke told twice or more is spam IMO. And while good natured spam is fine on Reddit as you say, on HN it dilutes the signal to noise ratio.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#82

Post by philwelch »

hej wrote: post #72
philwelch wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences. Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. The only downside is that it upsets intelligent people like you and I who are capable of actually parsing and understanding these kinds of st…

I’m not sure where (legal) liability comes in play here. I don’t think there is a way to successfully sue Dell for this (nor do I think there should be).

In some cases there is legal liability. In others it's just a matter of not wanting to be on record admitting guilt for other reasons.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#83

Post by ryanmolden »

spindritf wrote: post #32
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

> How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? About as many times as we make powerful people apologise in public, especially when they're not really feeling guilty. And it's not always in that form, sometimes it's closer to Clinton's "mistakes were made". While most non-apologies are pretty standard, there is some variation and innovation.

>And it's not always in that form, sometimes it's closer to Clinton's "mistakes were made".

That phrase far predates Clinton, probably Nixon or earlier was the first I heard it attributed. There is also a great book by that title (Mistakes were made, but not by me) that talks about the psychological drive to quell dissonance and how it can lead to absurd scenarios.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#84

Post by dhughes »

orcadk wrote: post #17

Just to give a short recap of who this Mads Christensen guy is, coming from a Dane: His tag line is "Denmarks big show-off" and he basically markets himself as a provocative bragging show-off, always with the rolexes, sports cars, slick hair and better-than-thy appearance. He's not perceived as a comedian but rather as an entertainer hired for various corporate events - some obviously less successful than others. Unl…

Like a non-political Rush Limbaugh?

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#85

Post by josephcooney »

Picture this if you will:

Half way through Mads Christensen's 'spot/tirade' Michael Dell walks onto the stage carrying a microphone. Mad's microphone goes dead. "Well Mads, I know we (Dell) asked you to come along and speak today" says Michael "but your views about women are very, very wrong. They don't represent my views, the views of my company, and they have no place at this conference. We're going to have a 15-minute impromptu Q&A with Nicolai Moresco while I make sure the PR people who invited Mads here today never receive another cent from Dell, and then I'll host the panel. I'm deeply sorry for this mistake."

Michael Dell stamps his authority on things, shows leadership, puts forward a positive message, guaranteed to be a memorable moment/talking point with attendees rather than some the usual bland corporate crap. Wouldn't the world be a lot better if there was more of this?

Once when I was a kid the TV station (Channel 9 in Australia) ran a show with some highly questionable content. I was a kid so I didn't see it but from what I gather it was pretty base. Half way through the show the guy running it (Graham Kennedy I think) came out and said Kerry Packer (who owned the 9 network) had called up and cancelled the show. I didn't/don't care much for Kerry Packer, but I remember thinking at the time that this was a classy move.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#86

Post by polemic »

etherael wrote: post #79

I know it's fashionable to have a knee jerk reaction and not actually check backstory etc, but just quietly. http://www.madschristensen-foredrag.dk/mc/Aktuelt-og-media This guy is clearly a comedian / over the top on purpose, to say that he actually genuinely believes the purposefully crafted bullshit on display in this particular article is to say that Les Patterson from Australia actually thinks that it's appropria…

Here's the thing: it's not humour. It's misogyny thinly dressed as an "edgy" dig so that anyone who protests can be deflected with this sort of defence. It's a tried and true technique to broadcast bigotry and slander with a wink and a nudge.

I'm not saying you agree with his sentiments, but I am saying that it's not ok to say "it's just a joke". And it's not ok for Dell to let him continue to moderate their conference - even if they didn't realise what they were getting into, they should have removed him at the first sign things were not as they seemed.

PS we have very different definitions of 'self-deprecating'.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#87

Post by essayist »

philwelch wrote: post #38
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences. Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. The only downside is that it upsets intelligent people like you and I who are capable of actually parsing and understanding these kinds of st…

IANAL, but in various contexts, apologies actually work to defuse the situation and prevent legal action. I've read research into malpractice and product negligence that indicates that sincere apologies actually reduce lawsuits, because, in many cases, the lawsuits are sparked not by the initial negligent act, but rather by stone-walling. I can't find those references tonight, alas.

But there is this research into problem resolution for German Ebay customers

http://www.psmag.com/culture/were-sorry-not-all-apologies-ar...

that indicates that a real apology from a vendor is more effective than (some amount of) cash in getting a customer to withdraw negative evaluations.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#88

Post by etherael »

polemic wrote: post #86
etherael wrote: post #79

I know it's fashionable to have a knee jerk reaction and not actually check backstory etc, but just quietly. http://www.madschristensen-foredrag.dk/mc/Aktuelt-og-media This guy is clearly a comedian / over the top on purpose, to say that he actually genuinely believes the purposefully crafted bullshit on display in this particular article is to say that Les Patterson from Australia actually thinks that it's appropria…

Here's the thing: it's not humour. It's misogyny thinly dressed as an "edgy" dig so that anyone who protests can be deflected with this sort of defence. It's a tried and true technique to broadcast bigotry and slander with a wink and a nudge. I'm not saying you agree with his sentiments, but I am saying that it's not ok to say "it's just a joke". And it's not ok for Dell to let him continue to moderate their conferen…

> PS we have very different definitions of 'self-deprecating'.

It's self deprecating when you make ridiculously over the top statements about how awesome you are because it makes you look like an idiot. That old "I'm a pretty big deal around here" chestnut.

It is humour, whether or not it is taken as such is a different issue, when Bill Hicks gets up on stage and repeatedly tells people in advertising to kill themselves, he's not actually serious. Some might take that seriously but he's a comedian and it's humor.

If an advertising exec is heinously offended that he was just repeatedly directly told he ought to kill himself because he will never amount to anything or accomplish anything good in his life, does that mean that it wasn't humor?

You may well have a point about the venue potentially being inappropriate for this kind of thing, however to actually take the content of the comedy literally and seriously and be offended by it is just completely missing the point.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#89

Post by rictic »

etherael wrote: post #88
polemic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: it's not humour. It's misogyny thinly dressed as an "edgy" dig so that anyone who protests can be deflected with this sort of defence. It's a tried and true technique to broadcast bigotry and slander with a wink and a nudge. I'm not saying you agree with his sentiments, but I am saying that it's not ok to say "it's just a joke". And it's not ok for Dell to let him continue to moderate their conferen…

> PS we have very different definitions of 'self-deprecating'. It's self deprecating when you make ridiculously over the top statements about how awesome you are because it makes you look like an idiot. That old "I'm a pretty big deal around here" chestnut. It is humour, whether or not it is taken as such is a different issue, when Bill Hicks gets up on stage and repeatedly tells people in advertising to kill themsel…

The first two sentences of your comment are unrelated to the rest.

The "I'm a pretty big deal" thing is just a joke. A lot of the greats have spun bits around it over the years (I think Steve Martin is among the best). That is exactly 0 defense for encouraging a room full of business people to say "Shut up bitch" or asking the (few) women in the room what business they have being there.

To say that it's inappropriate doesn't begin to cover it. Have some empathy for the women in that room and those in our industry.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#90

Post by mahyarm »

orcadk wrote: post #17

Just to give a short recap of who this Mads Christensen guy is, coming from a Dane: His tag line is "Denmarks big show-off" and he basically markets himself as a provocative bragging show-off, always with the rolexes, sports cars, slick hair and better-than-thy appearance. He's not perceived as a comedian but rather as an entertainer hired for various corporate events - some obviously less successful than others. Unl…

So he's a Danish Sacha Baren Cohen? (Borat, etc)
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