Live data from Hacker News

Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

twitter.com

81–90 of 137 posts

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#81

> First, to recap: Google injected special instructions into Gemini so that when it was asked to draw pictures, it would draw people with “diverse” (non-white) racial backgrounds. I just love how this "solution" to their problem of their training set being deeply flawed is such a hilariously bad kludge hack of the sort a jr programmer would make and it's amazing that they went with it.

> their problem of their training set being deeply flawed

The world is deeply flawed. If you do an unbiased search [0] of the real pictures of people in such-and-such profession, you get a vague approximation of the people actually in that profession. This does not approximate what Google or anyone else wants the demographic to be — it’s the demographic of people matching the query, times the expected number of times their photographs appeared in the training set, times whatever weight the model gives to those photographs. The naturally picks up whatever may be wrong with society that resulted in this distribution.

If people of X race/gender/whatever are underrepresented in profession Y, and you search for photos (or synthesize them by generative AI), do you want a sample drawn from the actual distribution of photos or from a distribution with the underrepresentation corrected? And what does correcting it mean?

[0] whatever that means — maybe just giving uniform weight to all the distinct pictures of decent quality that are on the Internet. The actual selection criteria won’t change the result too much.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#82
post #44

Yishan did this same sleight of hand trick with twitter before Elon bought it[1]. Then his point was that twitter doesn't have a bias, it's simply a normal moderation problem (noise-signal ratio). Now that twitter is owned by Elon, everyone can see it obviously moved right. What normies are fairly noticing in these corps is moderating not by the overton window of the normal consumer, but by the overton window of the…

Wouldn’t Twitter be an unambiguously more successful business if Elon’s moderation moves brought it more in line with “the normal consumer?”

Seems to me he simultaneously put out a dogwhistle for one audience (far right commentators agree on this) and was openly hostile both to individuals and standard sensibilities among another audience (e.g. it’s distasteful to treat employees of your newly acquired company the way he did).

That could fully explain “the shift” without any “omg conspiracy Overton window biased moderation” mumbo jumbo.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#83
Nah, Google is just racist. Jack Krawczyk is on record making a bunch of racist remarks (against white people) and Youtube was sued multiple times for racial discrimination (against whites and males).

It just permeated the culture and produced a self censorship effect. Who's going to stand up, in a company they know to be racist, and flag racism in their product as an issue? Nobody.

And so even if anyone noticed the problem before release, they didn't report it.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#84
post #83

Nah, Google is just racist. Jack Krawczyk is on record making a bunch of racist remarks (against white people) and Youtube was sued multiple times for racial discrimination (against whites and males). It just permeated the culture and produced a self censorship effect. Who's going to stand up, in a company they know to be racist, and flag racism in their product as an issue? Nobody. And so even if anyone noticed the…

Certain people often complain about “systemic” problems but never aim the magnifying glass at themselves and go on to claim there’s no censorship effect, there’s no bias, etc.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone disagree with fundamentalist Christianity? Why would anyone disagree with Wahhabist Islam? Why would anyone disagree with Maoism? People have different opinions on politics, religion, society. The more extremist a certain group/movement/ideology is the more concerned about it people will become.

"Wokeness" as defined by the people who use it is not a religion (and it's not extreme). It's just pejorative word for diversity used by people who believe in white supremacy.

[deleted]

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#86
post #74
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you contending that the black Wehrmacht soldiers, or black British kings eating watermelon, were anticipated or desired by Google staff? Even if you model them as the most extreme conceivable woke boogeymen, surely they wouldn't want a scenario where the diversity programming produced a result that they would consider more insulting to minorities than the one that would have been produced without it.

"By design" is not the same as "what we wanted".

That's precisely what is typically considered to be the problem of AI alignment.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#87
post #45

> got a totally bonkers result they couldn’t anticipate. I fundamentally disagree with this statement and frankly the entire line of reasoning This isn’t some unforeseeable 3rd order side effect coming out of a black box from left field. You’re always injecting an instruction to put in diverse people so now it’s always doing just that. Entirely predictable. This is like adding a system prompt saying always put tamago…

Yes. It was a hilariously bad solution to a real problem. The problem was that their training data yielded outcomes that weren't a representative sample of reality. They didn't try to solve that problem. Instead they just tried to put their thumb on the scale to compensate.

Yes - that seems like a good summary of root cause. This problem needs to be fixed at data level.

...admittedly a challenging proposition so I can understand why everyone is trying to "fix in post" via prompt

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#88
post #81

> First, to recap: Google injected special instructions into Gemini so that when it was asked to draw pictures, it would draw people with “diverse” (non-white) racial backgrounds. I just love how this "solution" to their problem of their training set being deeply flawed is such a hilariously bad kludge hack of the sort a jr programmer would make and it's amazing that they went with it.

> their problem of their training set being deeply flawed The world is deeply flawed. If you do an unbiased search [0] of the real pictures of people in such-and-such profession, you get a vague approximation of the people actually in that profession. This does not approximate what Google or anyone else wants the demographic to be — it’s the demographic of people matching the query, times the expected number of times…

Since the earliest reporting on this topic, "bias" in AI has never referred to accuracy. It's not the case that certain professions have a demographically representative proportion of all ethnicities and both sexes. Accurately portraying this reality is "bias". Portraying a fantasy with proportionate representation is "removing bias."

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#89
Google likely knew of this issue, but you need to understand that DEI-related missteps are judged a lot more harshly by the society than other types of errors. So, for Google this was likely “choosing the lesser evil” type of scenario. Anticipating edge cases for LLM behavior is very difficult, but it’s hard to imagine that no-one at Google tested vikings and 1940s Germans before the release.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#90
Xoogler here: pointing out such things internally is incompatible with continued employment at Google (see eg Damore’s “echo chamber” essay, the echo chamber got even more airtight since then). So the end result is quite predictable. Moreover, this will continue, and i don’t see how they get out of this hole without firing a bunch of internal “activists” who spend their entire days stirring the pot on Memegen rather than actually working.
Post reply on HN