Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#81

Post by waterlesscloud » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:30 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #76

waterlesscloud wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that "my money" is an inaccurate term in some way?

The beauty of good spin is that it can be "accurate" without being "complete" or "informative". So it can fool the weak-minded into emotional responses (in this case, that tax is "like theft" and thus evil [removed, see below]. So what if tax starts as "your" money? You still need to pay it. Don't like the current policy? Then state a new one; don't spin. Edit: removed the "zero tax" bit as apparently it sounds like…

No one has introduced the concept of zero tax policy until you did so just now.

There are many kinds of spin, that's one of them.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#82

Post by monochromatic » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #12

As someone who holds three nationalities, and is 2 years away from a fourth: I look forward to the day I hold none. Beligerence of the "State" knows no bounds, I hope we can free ourselves from this regressive construct and, once again, live in this world judged by our own merit and character, beholden to none.

The belligerence of the state doesn't hold a candle to the belligerence of unfettered individuals.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#83

Post by secure1234 » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

secure1234 wrote: post #25

achille2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind listing out the countries, and how one goes about becoming a citizenship collector? My parents sacrificed an incredible deal to come to the US. For the life of me I can't comprehend why someone would do this. Loss of citizenship is permanent. Your kids lose it as well. Why would derek would do this to his kids.

His wife has dual citizenships in the U.S./India.

I heard that she's Indian, so she might just be a citizen there.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#84

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

secure1234 wrote: post #25

achille2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind listing out the countries, and how one goes about becoming a citizenship collector? My parents sacrificed an incredible deal to come to the US. For the life of me I can't comprehend why someone would do this. Loss of citizenship is permanent. Your kids lose it as well. Why would derek would do this to his kids.

His wife has dual citizenships in the U.S./India.

[deleted]

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#85

Post by joering2 » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #40

joering2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you want to live in a "free state" but yet you are acquiring just another citizenship? it feels to me like a meat lover giving a presentation on a vegan conference how beautiful world would be if we all eat veggies only, lol! btw: how is the custom board patrol treating you when you cross? some countries like in US while pulling up your name they can see all nationalities you have. I would assume they are hostile tow…

> some countries like in US while pulling up your name they can see all nationalities you have How does a third world tell US which are its citizens. Doubt there is a global citizenship database? Is there?

I would imagine by now there are some treaties between most nations that exchange such information. There is also passporting system. You gave them any sort of passport (at least here in US) and they will look it up in the computer. They have to be looking up some sort of database, right?)

I could imagine someone holding so many citizenships would be very valuable asset to government agency that hire spies.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#86

Post by jarek » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:35 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #40

joering2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you want to live in a "free state" but yet you are acquiring just another citizenship? it feels to me like a meat lover giving a presentation on a vegan conference how beautiful world would be if we all eat veggies only, lol! btw: how is the custom board patrol treating you when you cross? some countries like in US while pulling up your name they can see all nationalities you have. I would assume they are hostile tow…

> some countries like in US while pulling up your name they can see all nationalities you have How does a third world tell US which are its citizens. Doubt there is a global citizenship database? Is there?

I think you would be required to disclose your other citizenships when obtaining the U.S. one.

They wouldn't necessarily know about others if you got the American one by birth, though if you were born abroad you can be sure that's going to be in the profile.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#87

Post by run4yourlives » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

biomene wrote: post #79

InclinedPlane wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idealogically pure idea of stateless citizens working in harmony of their own free accord is a fantasy that doesn't mesh with reality and just as dangerous as any Marxist Communist fantasy. In the right here and right now states are far from perfect, and we are in the middle of a period where lots of forces are pushing for greater consolidation of power in the hands of the state. But the benefit of having governm…

In what way is communism dangerous? I fail to see any inherent danger in a form of society that distributes its wealth evenly across its citizens.

Well, for one, it fails to address the inherent need of people to achieve for personal/selfish reasons, thus removing life purpose for many of your best and brightest - it kills ambition.

Ambition is what drives humanity forward, for better or worse. Unless you can channel the needs of the state as a replacement for personal ambition, your society under communism is unsustainable. This is very difficult to do without reverting to a society that is either 1) capitalist or 2) utterly corrupt.

Either way, communism is self defeating, and therefore dangerous.

EDIT: Just to note that I upvoted you and encourage others to do the same. This is a place to share knowledge and you asked a perfectly valid question that many people have. This is not reddit and nobody should be downvoted for asking a question, regardless of how basic it might be.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#88

Post by ChuckMcM » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #12

As someone who holds three nationalities, and is 2 years away from a fourth: I look forward to the day I hold none. Beligerence of the "State" knows no bounds, I hope we can free ourselves from this regressive construct and, once again, live in this world judged by our own merit and character, beholden to none.

Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the discussion of Sealand on Ars Technica [1] was the notion of 'laws of state' vs 'laws of self' which is really nicely explained in this PDF http://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles... . The money quote being:

"Juxtaposing these three theories of the rule of law allows us to see that there is something deeply anomalous in HavenCo’s simultaneous rejection of national self-government and embrace of formal legality and restraint on government. Having started from the premise that the political systems of existing nations could never be trusted to protect free speech, HavenCo needed a place outside of them to stand while it beamed its bits their way and undermined their national Internet laws.

That place needed to be able to stand up to annoyed nations, which led HavenCo to seek Sealand, with its colorable claims to sovereignty. And once HavenCo had chosen a protector with power, it also needed to be protected from the abuse of that power. HavenCo expected international law to protect it from the rest of the world and expected Sealand law to protect it from Sealand itself."

We can discuss and agree that people have fundamental rights, but having that discussion only makes sense in the context of establishing a way of enforcing those rights. The day you hold 'no' citizenship is the day that nobody is going to help protect your rights and you become someone else's slave. That isn't a day I would look forward too.

[1] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/03/sealand-and-...

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#89

Post by culturestate » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:37 PM UTC

ios84dev wrote: post #51

mahmud wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be a U.S. citizen but don't live there. That is the best option of them all, and one I took.

But then you still have to pay taxes on worldwide income right?

The tax system for overseas income is complicated, especially if you hold foreign assets (bank accounts or corporate interest), but the short version is that any income earned as an employee up to ~$95,000 can be excluded. It's called the foreign earned income exclusion.

Re: Derek Sivers Renounces his US Citizenship

#90

Post by cletus » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:37 PM UTC

EDIT: 48 upvotes in an hour and this submission just jumped from top 10 to second page? WTF?

Honestly, the US is the most invasive government in the "free" world I've had the misfortune to encounter.

I can't think of another developed nation that is quite so overbearing when it comes to foreign income. US citizens who haven't been in the US for 40 years and work in other countries STILL need to report their income to the IRS (as an Australian who lives and works in the US, Australia doesn't care about my income as one example).

The reporting requirements on tax residents in the US (citizens and non-citizens) is absurd. If I fail to disclose my retirement account in Australia, established well before ever working in the US, the US government can technically imprison me and charge me a penalty of 300% of the value of that retirement account (all in the name of "fighting terrorism").

What really doesn't sit well with me is the presumption of criminality that exists in US law (actual and enforced). The presumption of innocence seems to be some kind of anecdote in history.

I know I'll never take up US citizenship. No thanks. I'll stick with Australia/Britain (dual citizen) thanks.

In all honesty the only reason I'm even here is because I want to see it (New York in particular) before it's gone. The US reminds me of the crumbling, dying days of the Roman Empire.

Don't get me wrong. There are many great things about the US. Up until WWI, the US opened its doors to those seeking riches, a new life, freedom from religious persecution and any number of other terrible things in the Old World. In the span of a century (1800 to 1900), the US had turned itself from an agrarian backwater into an industrial superpower, a legacy that has lasted until the present day. The US has certainly played a key part in the technological progress of the 20th century.

But now the government seems to consist of self-interested parties who are happy to persecute citizens of every country including its own. It really seems like it's lost its way and I'm not sure how it comes back from that.